Why Most Podcasts Stall: Consistency, Completion Rate, Better Packaging

4.6 million podcasts exist. Only a tiny slice stay active. The difference isn’t gear or luck. It’s whether you respect the listener’s attention (and measure it).

In this episode, I’m joined by my husband (and longtime podcaster) Badr Milligan to recap what we learned at Podfest Orlando and how to apply it to your company’s show.

Takeaways:

• Track completion rate (aka average consumption). It tells you what’s working way faster than download counts.
• Fix your first minute. Say what the listener will get, then get to it.
• Stop “one recording, everywhere” thinking. Audio and video need different context and editing.
• Consistency is a moat. Most shows quit. That’s the opportunity.
• Build diehard fans you can identify and activate, not a random pile of downloads.

Fav quote from the episode: “It’s never been easier to make content, but now you have to make the editorial choice of what you’re going to produce, and why?”

Links: 

• Badr's podcast, The Shortbox
• Jax Podcasters United
• Podfest website

Watch this episode on YouTube 

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THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS!

SPI Logistics has been a Day 1 supporter of this podcast which is why we're proud to promote them in every episode. During that time, we've gotten to know the team and their agents to confidently say they are the best home for freight agents in North America for 40 years and counting. Listen to past episodes to hear why.

CargoRex is the search engine for the logistics industry—connecting LSPs with the right tools, services, events, and creators to explore, discover, and evolve.

Digital Dispatch maximizes and manages your #1 sales tool with a website that establishes trust and builds rock-solid relationships with your leads and customers.

Transcript

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 0:37

Blythe, welcome into another episode of everything is logistics, a podcast for the thinkers and afraid. I'm your host, Blythe Milligan, and we are presented by SPI logistics, and we are live in Orlando, Florida for our third pod fest conferences. Happens every year in the city of Orlando, as well as a traveling tour that podcast does. And I am joined for the first time in show history by my husband, fodder Milligan, also a longtime podcaster, and we're going to be talking about some of the podcast strategies that we have learned at this year's podcast, and how you can take these lessons and turn them into your own creative content or your own company's podcast. And so let's just go ahead and kick things off with our first topic of overall conference takeaways. What's sort of the biggest takeaway that you have from this event?

Unknown: 1:34

Can I first start off by saying, Wow, such an honor to be on everything is logistics. For the first time, my debut appearance, I am honored, flabbergasted and deeply appreciative of your listeners lending me their ears. Hi, I'm the husband. You may have heard of me a couple times. Okay, all right. Jokes aside. Okay, my big takeaway, my most immediate takeaway, and just feeling coming off of pod fest, we attended for two days. We decided to cut our trip short. But we attended a lot of panels, spoke a lot, so I feel confident in saying that my biggest takeaway is that podcasting is still going to be around for a long time. I think that that point is punctuated based on two very significant talks that we attended. The keynote with James critlin, the editor for pod news, as well as the opening keynote ceremony with Pat Flynn, you know, hyper successful podcaster. It's been podcasting a long time blogging. He started off with blogging, podcasting. The name of his podcast, which

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:49

smart, passive and Smart Passive, or income, Smart Passive, as

Unknown: 2:51

well as a very successful Pokemon YouTube channel as well. I think, based on those two keynotes, you know, learning about where the history of podcasting, where we've been, where we're at, where we're going. We're in critlands Opening Ceremony, as well as seeing someone like Pat Flynn still out here. You know, adapting to how podcast has evolved from being a strictly audio thing to now video. You know, it's kind of synonymous. You know, when you say podcasting, people think not just audio, but also YouTube. So to see, like, his success and how he's pivoted into a whole new lane, and, you know, he's incorporating strategies that he's learned from his time as a, you know, audio podcaster into YouTube, I think I'm feeling, I'm feeling confident, and where podcasting is going in terms of the industry that you know something like Apple podcast is still, like the number one podcast app, a choice for a lot of folks. It gives me a lot of hope in terms of the traditional audio sense, as well as, like, this new age video strategy.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 3:51

Yeah, I definitely echo the the Pat Flynn sentiment, because as someone who started blogging in 2007 it's one of those moments where you can watch another creator because, because Pat Flynn, for me, he was the first person to really set the stage as far as income is concerned. Like it was the first way that I knew of how people make money online. And then just to see his career trajectory go from being a blogger, starting off with podcasting, doing live streaming, then getting into YouTube, and then now he is, I think he just started also a dedicated shorts channel. Think currently, as of the time that we're recording this, he is doing a short, you know, 30 day challenge, and asking all of his audience members in order to make a short form video every single day so that you can stop, you know, kind of getting out of your own or getting out of your own way, instead of, you know, stopping production, because you think that, you know, things have to be perfect, and he just wants you to jump right into it. He also made a really great tripod. Started off as, like a Kickstarter because he was tired of, like coming to conferences and not having, you know, a good travel kit. And so he made his own tripod, got it like a patent, and then put it up on Kickstarter, got fully funded, and now that's what he uses when he goes to events. And so it just, I think, just an impeccable example of how you can get started with making content and then start seeing the problems that exist in your realm of where you're creating content, and then how can you solve some of those problems? And how his career has evolved, you know, with 20 plus years of making content online,

Unknown: 5:28

I think also his his talk and the emphasis on storytelling and podcasting, you know, regardless of the production, you know, production. Production, quality, effects, things like that are obviously important. I think those are, like, kind of garnishes, and, you know, icing on top of the cake. But his emphasis on, like, always keeping a story, a story arc, what is, what is the emotion you're trying to listen from your from your listener, whether it's talking about making income through podcasting or something like Pokemon collecting, once again, you know, I was not expecting such a deep dive into the world of Pokemon collecting and cards, but I thought it was an engaging way of, you know, sharing his new journey and how, you know, at the heart of it, you know,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 6:15

but even the experiments that he was running like he was running experiments on the binders. Good binder behavior is something that I remember that he had a video that it or bad binder behavior. It started off with bad binder behavior, and it's, I promise, there's a point to this, but he was in instilling curiosity into what bad binder behavior is. And then he comes out speaking of products like he comes out with his own binder to keep your Pokemon cards in. And then inside the binder, it says, Good binder behavior. And so being able to tell those stories from a YouTube perspective, which then translate into other audio formats on him, and I know we're at a podcasting conference, but YouTube was also very dominant in just video in general was very dominant in this, in the content that I participated in, that I, you know, attended. I'm curious as to how video, does video play a more important role now with podcasting for you? Or maybe does audio? Does a focus on audio kind of ring home.

Unknown: 7:18

I think a little bit of both. I think it's hard to deny the importance of video having some sort of visual component with us, with so many of us finding ourselves occupying these spaces online that are very visual and video driven, whether it be YouTube, Instagram, you know, the list goes on and on. I don't think that's to say that there isn't still room for people to pursue an audio first podcast. But I think in the industries that we're talking about that are seeing these growths and these returns on investment, I think having a video component is just really important, and it was a buzzword that I heard in several talks this weekend was aI slop, which seems to be a lot of people's favorite phrase to throw out there when talking about just the low quality efforts and the low quality content that you see generated by AI, I think video is going to be Even more important in kind of combating that. Because, you know, Pat mentioned, like, you know, he was approaching this new venture of getting to Pokemon collecting of his kids, and, you know, really approaching it from a curiosity standpoint, you know, bringing the audience along. And, like, letting him be known as, hey, I'm a newbie, you know, tell me what I should do. And I thought that was an interesting way of building engagement, but also building trust. And I think video, you know, being able to see someone's face, the you know, he was showing so many different clips of him, whatever, completing a, you know, a collection of Pokemon cards. And you know he's crying, and you know he's hugging, like these people who are trading cards with him. You know, I don't think you can quite capture that same emotion through only audio, I think you have to approach that in a different way. But with video, I think it really helps resonate and bring that human aspect to it. You know, when someone's watching that you know and they know it's not AI, I think you know, you really, I think it goes a long way in building a connection with your audience, yeah,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 9:14

and I think starting to that point, starting a new channel right now, it's almost it feels like a lot of the population, not maybe at this conference, but just in general, are very cautious to follow someone new, because they don't. Maybe they don't know if it's an AI driven personality or not, because these things are so easy for those who don't know. It is so easy to go to a company like 11 labs where you can pick from an avatar type in a script, and then or get AI to make the script for you, plug the script in, and that video can say whatever you want it to say. And then you have other tools like descript, where it can clone a version of your voice with permission, of course, or maybe not permission, depending on who's using it. And then you can make new content from your cloned voice, and so you're developing a situation where can you develop trust, or can you establish trust and keep trust with your audience over a long period of time? And I think that for newer it's going to be a little challenging for newer creators to get into this game and to make it seem like, not make it seem like they're real, but to convey that realness to their audience. And so I think for the folks who have already been making content, maybe you have a little bit of an easier path, but you also kind of have to resist using, and I think just personally speaking, trying to resist using all. Of the tools and all of the things to take the human element out of it. I have, I am, have tested so many different AI tools over the last couple of years, and to the point where I'm like, I can't wait to have myself replicated. And I that's a stance that I've had before, but not just because of this conference, but, you know, just some the way that I think the winds are kind of blowing i i used to be the type that would say, I want to carpet bomb all social media with all of my content. I just want it non stop, one hit after another. You know, how can I take 17 clips from one interview and then put it all out on social media where? Now it's the complete opposite for me, where I need to be more involved with the editorial. I need to be the one who's looking at all of the headlines, the descriptions, the SEO keywords, the content that obviously that we're making, but where, where's the direction going? And then how can we do more quality instead of quantity? Not to say that I didn't put quality effort into my work, but it's, it's definitely, instead of 17 clips from one interview, it's one or two, and those are going to be such, you know, a great clip in my mind that I'm going to put out into the world, instead of just, you know, let me just put it into Opus clips. And whatever Opus tells me is like an A or a B, that's the one I'm going to send off to, you know, the YouTube shorts and social media. So it's definitely, I think, switch things around for me with the, I guess, the influx of all of the AI content, where it's never been easier to make content, but now you have to make the editorial choice of what you're going to produce, and why? Because, I mean, this is a business podcast like this is, you know, in the logistics industry that I work in, that you hear me, you know, across the hall, you know, having my interviews, there is a level of with my own content, of questioning. Do I want to just be talking heads like this, and just be a talking head and and make content like that, or do I want to take a little bit of a different spin on the audio version versus the video version? And I think that that's where Pat's talk really hit home for me is because he he definitely signified that he's evolved. I don't know that he does just strictly podcasts anymore. I think he only does like YouTube videos and so, but he's telling a story in a video format that would be really challenging to do in an audio format.

Unknown: 13:05

There was something that James cridlin, editor of fodnoo, said in his keynote to that point that I took a note of that I wanted to share, where he was talking about podcasters trying to play both fields at once. You know, I'm guilty of recording audio, recording a video podcast, but you're also putting out through audio, but you're not taking certain elements into into into factoring certain elements, right? Like you you're putting out in the audio version of this video podcast, you're making visual references. So that kind of like, you know you're listening. He had

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 13:46

that one example of it that was like a BBC podcast where, I guess the host opened up the show with, Oh, so you might be wondering why we're sitting in this big, fancy studio,

Unknown: 13:56

but for the audio listeners only. They're like, Well, you never really set any context. We don't, we can't see this from right. And I think that was important to hear that you know, whether you choose to strictly be audio only or video or a mesh of both, I think that is a conscious effort that you need to keep top of mind that you are serving two different, you know, two different listeners to different audiences. And keeping that in mind, you know, you mentioned the different tools, right? Like you come to a conference like this, the amount of vendors, exhibitors that are on the on the exhibitor floor, that have these services that can make clips for you or handle whatever you know, task that you might want to have covered, I think that's nice in dandy having high quality production, I think goes a long way in separating you from so many podcasts. But I think quality and quantity. I think there's a it's a trifect, and that third one is consistency. I'm going to reference crit Lynn's talk again, where he shared so many stats about, you know, there's 4.6 million podcasts according to the pod podcast index, which is, you know, a very inspiring number to hear that there's still so many podcasts out. You know, it's still new ones coming out to this day. But then, you know, juxtaposed to how many are actually active, meaning that they are lease dropping. I believe he said one episode a month to be claimed active, 7.2% that's, you know, 7.2 4.6 I want to do the math.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 15:26

It was about 400,000 active shows. So it was millions.

Unknown: 15:30

Regardless if you have 100 episodes in the bank, you know, it's the highest quality. None of that means anything. If it's not consistent, you know, and I think that was the big takeaway I'm taking is like, continue focusing on consistency and storytelling, you know, evoking some emotion out of the listeners, or, you know, imparting, you know, knowledge or something new for a solution for them.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 15:57

And I would just to clarify for the audience, James critlin. He is the editor of pod news, which is a daily newsletter that gives out all kinds of podcasting advice and tips and news. And they also have a business version of it as well. And James is a long broadcasting career. I think he was originally like part of the BBC. He went through this whole like, almost like a documentary style presentation where he was documenting the history of podcasting, and this was the talk that we set in that you're bringing these stats from. So James should be publishing those stats, and I believe in a couple of weeks, he said. But from that lens is where we were taking a lot of this insight, of a lot of where, where should podcasting go? Because there's such a large video component, and then you add in the AI slop, I guess is what for a lot of people who are looking, maybe for the easy way out. And I think the biggest takeaway from his talk, for me is we need to take more time with our content so that it's more quality, less quantity. And then, how do we do that from an audio perspective, and then also from the lens of keeping audio open, you know, the open standards of RSS, and you know, maybe some of the damage that some of these, or perceived damage that some of these bigger companies, you know, a Spotify or Netflix are doing for podcasting, or trying to get you to do for podcasting, which is just such a I feel like podcasting is just the definition of it. Feels like it's already evolved, but there's still a lot of like the audio focused people who have been in the game for a long time that want to keep it the pure format, versus adding all of the different video components to it, which muddies the water for podcasting.

Unknown: 17:43

I guess I don't put much weight into that, that argument, because I think podcasting has evolved much like a lot of the things that we interact with. Media wise, I don't know if it's so much as you know you should put so much emphasis on, like, what you know what podcasting is, or defined, versus you know, they're both, whether there's audio or video or a combination of both, they're both vehicles to tell a story and bar, you know, impart knowledge, or, you know, share information. So I don't know if I put, I personally don't put that much emphasis on that whole debate. I think, you know, you had me attend a podcasting, a business podcast panel where they, and I'm so sorry I can't recall the panel is off the top of my head. But several of them own podcast agencies, where they create podcasts for businesses as well as, you know, client other clients like that. They have services they sell, etc. And I mean, you know, judging from that conversation, and what I can recall is that they use a combination of both, both audio podcasts and video. And it my big takeaway from that was having a confidence and a really clear understanding of of who you are, who your audience is, what you're serving, what you're bringing to the table. And like, leaning in on that, whether that's just audio or video, I think you know it all comes back to, like, looking internally and like, what are your goals? Who is your audience? Like, what are you doing this for?

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 19:13

And now for you, you for a little bit of background on you. For the audience is that you've been a podcaster for, like, more than 10 years short, box podcast. You know, you've been in this game for a long time. So how do you see, or will you place a greater emphasis on the video components of the recordings you're already doing? Because you're recording much, I think, very similar to how the rest of you know, my industry records overall podcasting in general, where it's a zoom style format, and then you edit the audio file from that, and then the video is just what you kind of put up after the fact. Whereas I think Pat Flynn, he makes a YouTube first video, he's not doing this, and then turning that into a podcast he's doing. He's scripting it, he's recording this, and you might get, you know, five minutes of footage out of an hour long video that he records. So I'm curious as, how are you going to do video, or are you going to do video differently now that you you kind of hear all these different viewpoints,

Unknown: 20:17

I think I'm going to apply more intention, be more intentful with my video content. And I guess what I needed to see was someone like Pat Flynn, who is at the top of the game, and how he's utilizing YouTube, but also how YouTube is, you know, it's building incentive for creators to be on there, to study. Be the analytics. You know, I I guess that was a really big takeaway for me personally, as someone that's always considered himself audio first, and I've always kind of treated video as kind of second and like it's there if you want it. I think I'm leaving this with a better understanding of the power of YouTube and how, just because I'm on, I decide to put more resources and time, and he doesn't make me less of a podcaster or not a podcaster. It's just utilizing, you know, this new platform, not even really new. Let's be real. It's not new, but just having a bigger intention of, like, really utilizing YouTube and understanding its reach, its potential, and maybe spending more time editing and coming up with scripts. I loved what Pat said about I feel like this has not just become the Pat Flynn and James gridlin recap hour. I do want to talk about some of the other panels, but, and we will get, but, yeah, like, but, I just want to say I think that it really did leave such a big impression on me to see, you know, what he's generating for revenue. You know, like, if we're being real, like that is a top thing that I want to pursue, is more revenue with the podcast. And I feel like I've been leaving opportunity on the table with YouTube. I think of audio, it's such a you really have to be your biggest advocate, your biggest cheerleader. You really got to put in the legwork to find sponsors to show them the value of your show. Where I think YouTube has has some a lot of that built in, also like that Ford, the Ford facing analytics, the fact that you could see views and subscribers, discoverability, yes, I think for your traditional audio podcaster, that could be that could be a little scary to have your stats and numbers on Front Street. But I feel like audio, audio, first podcast are very intimate, not only for the listeners, the relationship you build the listeners, but also intimate in the sense of like these numbers, these behind the scene. Things are for my viewing only, unless I decide to share that so. Long story short, you know, rambling a little bit, but I think I leave this with with the motivation to be more intentful of my YouTube content, my my video content, but also to experiment more. You know, that was something Pat said, was 20% of your, what do you say content or or approach should be play, you know, experimenting, new ideas and yeah, your sandboxing. The 80% of your content is your, you know, your bread and butter. You know, your weekly shows, your the things that people know you for, I think that left a big, big impression on me, yeah.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 23:03

And I think just from my own, like looking at my own data, you know, I usually do this in December when, you know, I start playing a best of episodes, and I want to find out what the audience like and what they didn't like. And the analytics on YouTube are so different than the podcast. And for a podcast, you can an apple podcast, you can see, and if you don't know this, go inside your your apple podcast, look at your numbers and see how long people are listening to your episode. Yeah, and then go to that same episode that you have a video version on YouTube and see how long the retention rate for that is. For me, YouTube fell off a cliff after 10 minutes, and I from looking at Pat's numbers. Apparently this happens to a lot of people, just on, I guess, the medium of averages for a lot of channels. But for me, it really was an eye opener that I can't just edit the video slightly like we were doing different editing. You know, if the speaker, whoever is talking in the interview, that's the they take up the whole screen, versus just, you know, this kind of side by side, and that different kind of editing, even getting, like, a really good pull quote, a hook to start the video off with, we were trying to do different things. It just hasn't resonated with the audience. And so for me, it's okay. I'll still probably do a very low, I don't want to say low effort, but the video version that we're recording for the podcast is probably going to be the video that I upload to the video podcast feed on YouTube. So for folks who don't know, you have a YouTube classifies your content in several different ways. You have your shorts feed, you have your live feed, and then you have just your regular videos feed. And all of those are different types of content in YouTube's eyes. And so for me, what I plan on doing is like future interviews like this, I will use stream yard and put it up as a live and then the goal is, is that we'll make a audio version for the podcast, but then, if there's enough substance there, maybe I can take several interviews and splice them together for an overall sort of thesis on a specific topic, but I'm taking several different of these talking Head interviews and piecing them together into a larger format as a YouTube video. And I think that's where I'm I was more leaning more towards before this conference, but now after this conference, I'm like, that's the direction I need to go to, because then that's giving extra care to the video component, almost like a CNBC style video, where you're. Not just watching one person do the interview the entire time. You're watching them take several interviews with several people and then putting it together for one overall spiel. Like, you know, are robots going to take over Amazon workers. They're not going to talk to just one person on that one topic and get like their career backstory. They're going to talk to several different people and have that content be topic focused instead of guest focused. And I think for my industry and logistics and for all the other folks that are listening for podcast specifics, I think that that's where you need to take your shows next, because it has been so easy to do these talking head interviews, especially since covid And so now we need to evolve, and with AI coming into the fold just dramatically, like guns ablaze in then we need to take it up a notch and up our quality, so then that way, we're making better content for our audience, so we can continue to grow and continue to build that trust. I think that's just the direction I'm personally going to go, and it sounds like that's the direction you're going to go. And so let's move on into a couple of other different talks that that maybe would have stood out to you. I know I attended a LinkedIn talk that was pretty good. I, you know, I don't want to say, like, surface level knowledge, but stuff that I kind of already knew, like, make sure you optimize your about us, section, your description on your profile, having different your career history. You know, these are kind of like basic stuff that you should have on your LinkedIn profile already, which somebody needs to update their LinkedIn profile still.

Unknown: 27:11

This is about pod fest, ma'am, not about personal attacks to our lack of self promotion, but

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 27:18

it is a very powerful social media platform where, you know, people spend money, I won't say, like Instagram, for example, but they're spending money on clothes and ads and things like that. LinkedIn is where you're making those business connections, the long term business relationships. And so I did enjoy that talk and coming at it from that lens of being able to, you know, kind of see where I rank with my profile and how it's constructed versus other professionals and how they think about it. So that was one talk I really liked. I'll mention another one here too. But any other talks or that you participated on that you liked, I'll

Unknown: 27:56

highlight the the lessons from the top business podcast panel, which was about like I said, that the panelists included CEOs and people that run agencies and companies that produce podcasts that their business is podcast, and as someone who uses his podcast to sell certain services, I think I fall They kind of broke it down to three categories, right? You're either someone that has got a podcast for a hobby, which is all set and great, that's how I started, or your podcast is the business, right? You're selling services, ad spots, sponsorships, or your podcast is a vehicle to drive sales to your your your business, or, sorry, which I think you fall into that I've done all those things, yeah, and, you know, it, it was one of those conversations where, you know, they emphasize, you know, especially if you are a business that's using podcasts to get clients and referrals and, you know, business like that, there was a lot of emphasis on just figuring out your whys like your pipelines, your customer journeys. Who is the ideal audience? What solution? What problem are you trying to solve? What solution are you bringing to them? Very emphasis on like, you know, you know business B to B or business to customers. BTC, yes. See, as you can tell, this is my first business podcast experience, but the things I got out of that was, I think it's so easy to kind of hit the ground running, or you've been podcasting a long time, like myself, and you're just used to doing these actions, and these, these these things, is that's what you've been doing so long. I know it. I've published I'm gonna cut clips. I'm gonna promote it on to the next episode. That panel was nice because it kind of forced me to ask myself, like, but why do I do that? Like, what do I hope that listeners do like, I if I am selling an ad spot, how is someone actually it? How am I getting that? What is the process to buy an ad spot for me or a sponsorship, you know? So it was nice to kind of like, these are things that you think you already know. You're like, I already I already have that in mind. I already know the answer, but it's like, but do you like, can you answer it on the spot? And they also emphasized, I'm glad you brought it retention rate, because I felt like that was the other buzzword of the weekend. Was retention rate, you know, I think it's downloads is always really top of minds the first I think maybe stat most podcasters will quote, but retention rate was something I heard in several talks, especially when it comes to like YouTube, how that is a really important stat to like measure and take a look at. I don't think we talk about that enough in podcasting, and I think that's because. You've got so many different platforms. I mean, you know, back to that criblin talk, you know, he's saying that there's over 185 different platforms for podcasts, a majority of those being audio first. You know, I think YouTube is, you know, definitely a kind of fits that both, but regardless. So over 180 different platforms. Let's go and just cut that down to like the top five. You know, Apple podcast, Spotify, overcast, whatever I heart name your fifth one. That's a lot of different platforms to try to collect all these stats. We both host on Buzzsprout. They do a really good job of giving you really good stats in terms of your downloads locations, but they're not giving you retention rate, or listen through rate. You got to go on Apple podcasts. You got to go on Spotify. I think that's what makes YouTube an enticing platform to like really put all your eggs in a basket, because that data is so readily available. It goes a long way in that business. Podcast, they talk about, not only retention rate, being a part of what they call their pack, your packaging. So you got your retention rate thumbnails and title, you know? And we always hear that from many podcasts when it comes to success on YouTube, is your thumbnails and your titles are like your first line of defense or attack. You know? It's like, it's what people are drawn to. If those aren't strong, then who cares if the content and the video is good. You can't even hook them in the first, you know, in the first instance. And they had said something about if you have a lot of plays, this is talking about YouTube, if you have a lot of plays, but little retention, if people are are not staying, but you have, like, whatever, 20,000 views, but people are dropping off after the first minute. Well, then maybe you can narrow it down to the content. Maybe the content is good. You got a lot of plays. People are clicking on it. Maybe the thumbnail was good, the title is good, but they realize this is kind of boring. Or the inverse could be true. Do you have a lot of retention? People are staying through your 30 minute video. You know, everyone's staying for 20 minutes, that's great, but you don't have a lot of views, so maybe now you're looking at the packaging. You know your thumbnail maybe is in. Maybe you need to work on your thumbnail. Maybe your title could use some massaging. I thought that was pretty interesting, just the emphasis on leveraging and really doubling down on the stats and information made available to you. I think it's easy to gloss over that stuff and just look at it and just like, Okay, that's great. I got 100 downloads this week, awesome, but, like, really drilling down and using what you have. I think on the audio side, I cannot recall the name of the panelists that said this, but I thought he did a great job. But he was saying for his audio first show, he doubles down anytime he meets, you know, a listener in person, you know, he really doubles down on the anecdotal evidence, you know, tell me, how did you find the show? What do you like about the show? What don't you like? What is your biggest, you know, problem that you're trying to solve, you know? And that could just be one listener that you meet in the whole month or whole year, but that's valuable. That's all you got, right? Like, for audio, that's, that's a great additional information to get.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 33:45

Just, I mean, as you were talking, I can't help but think about like, this is just so much stuff to know and to learn. And for somebody just starting out, like, I don't even know where I would start. If I were to start a podcast today, I probably would just go straight to YouTube, you know, based on everything that we're talking about here, but that's a whole other different skill set, where you almost need the reps of podcasting in order to excel in video. And that's, you know, from coming from like a radio broadcaster. I never knew this, but that's how, for a lot of, you know, professional journalists and people that you see on TV, the typical path that they follow is that they start off at a newspaper writing, and then they get a little bit into radio, and then, if you look decent, then you get on camera, and they, you know, they'll say, you know, you got a face for radio. Is for, you know, a lot of folks that do work in radio for a very long time, and it's because they technically could not be, could not fit into the typical broadcast role. And so for a lot of folks that are working internally at a company and they're responsible for starting a podcast, or they're trying to do this in their spare time, like, where would you suggest that you even get started?

Unknown: 35:53

I think it would come down to to to your why. You know your why. Why are you podcasting? Is it for a hobby sake? Are you trying to build a business? I would say if it's the latter, if you're trying to do this to make money to free for business. I feel like YouTube is just a better return on investment, because if you're recording video, then you got audio, you know, I mean, obviously, keeping in mind the two different audiences that we talked about earlier. But also, you can get clips out of that, which, you know, fits the marketing aspect. You got clips for social. I think there's a lot more. There's there's definitely some. Oh, my God, I just lost my train of thought. There is, you know, just different opportunities to sponsor those, the retail, the retail, what am I saying?

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 36:40

Anyways, day three of a conference, we've talked a lot, and we've had some late nights and

Unknown: 36:47

so, but that's not to say that you can't find success. Audio only. I think for audio only, I think you'd have to just go very niche. I think we've heard several examples this weekend about very hyperactive, hyper niche podcasts that are doing extremely well for themselves, that probably won't ever hit the level of fame that you know, a lot of exactly aspire to. You know, for example, we had heard an example of a an air conditioned podcast that talks specifically about the lives of air conditioned fitters. You know, the day in the life of a fitter in their industry,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 37:30

tips and tricks of installing air conditioning. I won't even

Unknown: 37:33

pretend to fathom what they talk about, but the the example that based on that was that they are making plenty they make plenty of money off of their podcast through sponsorships. But also, I believe it's tied to a business and a service, and they, they,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 37:52

they also created it for the the person that's going to listen from job site to job site. And I think that's very when I heard them talk about that, I immediately thought of truck drivers, because there are so many creators within the trucking space, and they're making content for people who sit in a truck all day and need something to listen to, and so you have to think about, to your point, the why of what you're doing it, and then also the perceived ROI of what you're doing. Because you listed the different ways of or the different types of, you know, maybe you're doing it as a hobby, or maybe you're doing it for your business, but if you're doing it as a business or for a business, then you're doing it likely to get market research from your target customers, from your employee base. Maybe it's an informational podcast internally, for you know, HR sake. So there's lots of different reasons of why you would make a podcast, but when you start getting into the realm of treating it as a business, that's when I think there's a whole other set of expectations. Because, you know, we're sitting here talking about how everything is evolving, and all the different thumbnails and texts, and should I make this word all caps, and, you know, the versus the rest of the sentence, and all of those different components, you still have to explain the value of a view of a download to a potential sponsor, so having the business aspect of a podcast just has another layer to it, where you're trying to figure out what all of this stuff means, what your audience wants. Well, guess what? You have to also explain that to your sponsor and hope that they keep supporting you.

Unknown: 39:26

Yeah, obviously I'm on a business podcast, so this is almost counter, counter to the whole ethos of this. But, you know, just thinking about the just the the regular person that comes to the an event like this is inspired to do a podcast about a hobby or passion that they like. I don't want it to seem that that it that starting a podcast has to make you money, that you have to, you know, build a production company. Because that was another topic that they brought up, is that, you know, when you look at the celebrity podcast, you know, it's, it's easy to, I think, forget that they've got so much resources at their hand. They're not editing the show, they're not lining up guests, they're not cutting clips. You know, unfortunately, that's going to fall on a if you're just starting out, that's all going to fall on you. And I think it's up to you to decide what you want to do and what you don't want

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 40:19

to do. It's really easy to get overwhelmed with all of this. And

Unknown: 40:21

you don't have to do all of that. You don't. I was talking to someone today where it's like, if you don't want to do video, if that's too hard, then do audio. If you don't want to be on social media, then don't be but you know, obviously there's going to be give and takes with that. I think if I was just starting out and I wanted to do a hobby only podcast, I would ask myself, Is this hobby or topic going to be enhanced by having visual then maybe I would lean into video. But if not, and I just wanted to focus on consistency, getting it off the ground. I would go audio and I would, I would absolutely double down on finding my community and finding a rather specific niche and audience to like, to cater to. I think video is for, like I said, I for me. I've been doing this long enough I can, I can dedicate a little more resources to video the hobby. I'm sorry, the topic that I talk about would be enhanced because it is a visual medium. I'm talking about comic books. It's a visual medium. I you know, it would work with YouTube.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 41:26

I think it's just, it's, it's really quick, or it's really easy to get. Overwhelmed when you hear about all of the things that all of all of the people are doing and what works and what doesn't work. I think having, I don't want to say like a clear vision, because I don't know that I've ever been had like a super clear vision on my content, I try to keep it a little bit more fluid and structure the things I can structure. But also, I think you have to take a hard look in the mirror at times and realize where you're falling short. I feel like I'm falling short with YouTube videos. I feel like I could that's a that's a creative step that I want to take and that I want to become better at, but I don't want to do it at the sake of losing the audio version of the podcast, because I think of myself as a podcaster first, and then how do I get better at the other components, and what can I outsource? And what to my earlier point of, I need to stay close to the editorial that's where I'm I shine and where I'm good at, and I shouldn't outsource it to other people, to or an agency. In order to handle that for me, I should have the clear direction of who my audience is, who I'm talking to, and why. And I think that that's something very personal that everyone kind of has to come to grips with, of who they're talking to, why they're doing this. Do you even want to take it up a notch, or do you want to, you know, just keep doing

Unknown: 42:50

what you're doing, yeah, which is the totally fun, right? And look at Joe Rogan,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 42:54

like, I know this is sensitive topic for some people, so sorry if you get stressed out with me. You know, mentioning his name, but very simple setup. He has one producer. They do one social media clip, and that's it, yeah,

Unknown: 43:07

it should always be the focus, regardless of the production quality, the the social media popularity, like the content needs to resonate with someone, and yeah, your story needs to resonate with someone. The other big thing I took away from this is not being afraid. It's just how fluid the industry is, and as a creator, not being afraid to to experiment, to practice. You know, they mentioned a few times utilizing YouTube's like a, b testing for the thumbnails, you know, just small things like that. You're always, you're always, constantly tweaking. And that was, I think, the realization that really got hammered in this weekend is that, if there was keys to success, to making a successful podcast. There would be no one here. There would be no more talks. We would have figured this out years ago. But the podcast industry, the podcast podcasting, is much like any other industry. It's always evolving. It started as audio only, you know, with RSS and, you know, I remember having to do my own coding. Now it's here, you know now, it incorporates video, it It's millions of podcasts. It's always going to be evolving, and I think you can evolve with it by just experimenting, trying out new content. Yeah.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 44:27

So what do you think is is next for you after this? What's the first thing

Unknown: 44:31

you're going to do? It sounds like, it sounds like I can try new things. I think I so. It's permission, almost. Yeah, it was encouragement to be like, Okay, let me try some new video content. Let me try some something fresh. You know, I know I'm good at what I already do. I can keep that running. Let me make time to try a new series, to maybe do more solo focus. Things get a little better at some editing.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 45:02

This little behind the scenes joke, because I keep telling him for years to do more solo episodes. Yeah?

Unknown: 45:09

So I think my Yeah, my most immediate action item is to come up with some new concepts and write some new scripts, really, I think, revisit the my processes that I have in place and make sure that they are refined, that I'm not just like, oh, yeah, that works. I already got that set up. Do I really have a setup? I think a nice little audit. I think that's, that's what it

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 45:29

comes down. What about from an AI perspective, like we've kind of, you know, talked bad about, I don't want to say talk bad, but we haven't exactly shown AI in a positive light. Maybe in this episode, maybe kind of neutral. We've been a little neutral. There's, I think, a lot of fear

Unknown: 45:45

around, no, I think it's, I think we know what is considered ai slopp and what isn't, if you're using, I mean, how many tools have we've used throughout the years that technically are AI or have some sort of AI component, I would I still hold fast that I would not let AI make.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 46:08

How do you use currently AI in your podcast. I mean, obviously transcriptions, I think, is the biggest winner

Unknown: 46:15

ever got started. I you know, if I'm looking at how the blank

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 46:18

page or the I heard it say that blank page syndrome, it gets rid of that,

Unknown: 46:23

yeah, just give me something to start and I'll refine it. You know, like, even if you hate it, yeah, I almost look at AI as it brings. Slab of granite, of Rock, and I'm like, Michelangelo, I'm just chipping away at it, all right? I'm finding the statue of David, you know, I think, have you ever heard that, where it's, you know, it's all about reduction. You know, you take this big slab of rock, and then you keep taking away from it, taking away from it, until you get, you know, that statue of David that's lying in the center of it. I think that's what how I view AI is like, it gives me some raw materials, and it's up to me and my best judgment. It's why listeners trust me, you know, to express my opinions and thoughts, to take that raw material. And do you think

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 47:06

you outside of transcripts? Are you how you're using it for ideation? Is that maybe, like the most you're using it for,

Unknown: 47:14

I think data finding. I think I attended an seo panel today about, you know, SEO strategies for podcasters. I won't say that I had an epiphany in that, but there was an interesting use case of looking at your competition, your your peers, other similar shows, finding out, like, what, what are some of the keywords and that they're utilizing and using chat GBT for, like, that data refinement and just looking at a big data so I think that's where I'm going to continue using it is for research purposes. Like, I don't want to comb through every single page and read through every single post, you know. Let me give it to old chat, G, B,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 47:55

T, well, I will say so. I tried AI in a variety of different formats. I love experimenting. I love trying out new tools and see where it can fit. Transcriptions is clearly the biggest winner. I still remember to this day of, you know, making a social media clip and then having to manually go in and add the transcripts myself and type it out myself. So not having to do that has been a godsend. But some of these tools for deep research, you know, being able to do a deep research report on a guest, and I can include, you know, their LinkedIn profile, their website, and, you know, make almost like a summary document. And then that summary document that I no longer have to spend hours doing is just done for me in a matter of, you know, five to 10 minutes. And then I can read that summary document, and then I can come up with the questions, or I've even prompted it and said, Okay, come up with in my voice, in my tone and style. Here's some transcripts of previous interviews. This is the kind of flow that I like using. Come up with a show plan of questions that I should be asking. And most of the time I don't like it, but it spawns or spurs that creative juice to be like, Okay, this is where I want to take the show. This is where I want to take the interview. One aspect of it that you don't necessarily see on camera or in the content itself. I mean, it shows, I think, in the results, but being able to use different sources to come to come up with new concepts, you know, for example, like, I'll notebook LM is probably my favorite AI platform, but I'll be able to take, you know, a previous guess all of the appearances that they've done previously. And it's like, how can I make my interview and my voice different from these previous conversations? Because we do have a thing in my industry where one person we'll go on several different shows and from I don't want to have the same episode as everybody else. I want mine to be different. I want it to be elevated versus everybody else. And so using all of that context, then I'll plug it in, and I'll write out my own questions, and then I'll take those questions and plug it right back into the system and say, push back on this. Like, what, what would what do you think I'm missing from my own content that you think that I should have? And so, you know, looking at it from that lens, it almost acts as like your assistant, your co CEO, that can help you with the editorial direction of your own show based on your own content that you've already created. And so I think that this is just a realm of possibilities, that you can use these different formats. And then, you know, take it from there of how do you add where? Where is the important human elements for you to add? And then how do you stay true to what your editorial style is, so that you're not overly influenced of what everybody else is doing. How do you kind of pick and choose of what will work, what has worked for other people, and what could work for your audience and your show?

Unknown: 51:01

Yeah, and I think in closing, that's the message that I am internalizing. But I also want to share with with you know podcasters and listeners out there is that podcasting is going nowhere, whether that be audio or video. I think there's, there is stats to support that. I think there are prime examples of people in this space doing that. Pat Flynn, you know, being, you know, in this for this weekend, I keep bringing him up because I think it was great for. Him to open that and, you know, showcase his his findings. I think if you are happy with where you're at with your reception, your downloads, your you know, anybody, if you're happy with it, I think, continue doing what you do, but if you do want to take it to the next level, would that be, you know, more downloads, or whatever your your your internal ROI is, don't be afraid to experiment, I think, doubling down on the stats and data that you have available to you, and really studying those and making sense of what they mean, and just and expecting this to be a process that you know, with experimentation, you try a little, and maybe it might be months before you see, you know, a return on that, or it to hit, or maybe it doesn't, and then you got to pivot, you know, not to look at as wasted time. Or, you know, obviously it's, it's a risk in a certain way. But I don't think it has to be a, I don't think it's got to be a, I think it's

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 52:33

got to be a sandbox, like giving yourself permission to experiment, like not paying attention to the numbers, but also paying attention to where you want to go creatively and how you want to take your show to the next level.

Unknown: 52:48

I think striking a balance between remembering why you do this show, having your why, your who, your what, and finding the balance with like. But this is what the data is telling me, and trying to find that perfect middle ground of like. I'm going to try this. I'm going to change this, but at the same time it still sticks true to my ethos of and

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 53:08

respect to the platform of which you're creating. And so, you know, back to the James cridlin example. Don't just tell me you're in this big opulent room and expecting people to watch the video version. Describe it. Talk about the velvet carpet, you know, the golden chairs, because that they were sitting in that example that he had. He was sitting in a very opulent set, and only people watching it would have seen the opulence, but the host didn't describe it to the audio listening audience. And so with all of that said, I am curious as to, you know, what are your because YouTube, you can see all of the examples, and you can see those different experiments. You can see the view counts. And I think that that's what's unique about YouTube, is that you can see the, you know, the Thumbs Up on certain content, and the ratio of comments versus the video that's on and the views, and you can compare all those numbers. Podcasting, you're left in the dark. You don't know how many views a particular episode has, or that the public doesn't. So from a, I guess, an outsider's perspective, of the shows the audio first shows that you listen to. Which ones stand out the most of pure they might have a video component, but you thoroughly enjoyed listening to the audio version of that episode.

Unknown: 54:22

I mean, none of them are business podcasts, that's right, but I am a big fan of the Questlove supreme podcast, which is just a one on one interview. He interviews musicians, actors, you know, people in the pop culture space. And I thoroughly just enjoy the conversations they have, the stories they tell. You know, the questions he asked. He's able to pull certain things out of you know, his guests that I think a regular interviewer probably wouldn't because he's in this space, you know, and not to bring up crittle it again, but he showcased this shirt that he had made that it said, but it said podcast, something for your ears when your eyes are busy. And that really stuck with me, because it just kind of highlights that intimacy of having like someone so close to you, like literally in your ears. I don't think as podcasters, we should under underestimate that power and

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 55:24

the car rides, the people who are cleaning, doing laundry, like you know, all of the things that you do at home, you

Unknown: 55:30

have their active attention, you know, like I know for myself, if I'm doing something mundane, washing the dishes, I feel like my hearing is 20 times better

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 55:39

than Well, it's a compliment instead of a distraction, which is in my own listening habits. I think I, you know, I was telling you last night I can't. It's been a long time since I've listened to an audio first episode. I have found myself going more and more to YouTube if there's a video version of the podcast, but I've also looking at my screen time reports. I spend way too much damn time on YouTube as well, and I could be getting much more done, my own creation done, and if by not participating in the type of content that distracts me from life, instead of the audio which compliments my life.

Unknown: 56:14

And I think it's too you know, podcast fans, you know, enthusiasts that have, you know, have our regular shows. I know I've been listening to some of these for literally decades, and I don't see myself not listening to them like any long you know. I'm saying it's

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 56:29

like, well, if quest love, if he. Had, you know, a video version of the podcast. Would you watch it?

Unknown: 56:33

No, not really. I mean, I know I actually, I wouldn't, because I think I have built the habit of this. And once again, that's another aspect I think podcasters should, like, really, like, pay attention to, and that that is the goal, right? Is for us to become a part of someone's habit where every, you know, my case, every Wednesday I drop an episode. My goal is for someone, a listener, every Wednesday to tune in on their way to the comic shop. You know, because Wednesdays is the day that the new comics come out. Like I'm trying to build, I'm trying to get into someone's habit. And I think when you do have that, when you do cross that, and it's a success there, there's a lot of power in that. And I think audio is just a different habit, that you're building a different relationship. But that's all to say that I don't have to pick between audio and video, you know. Like, the only thing hindering me from listening to even more shows is the amount of time I have, you know, like you said, I you know, I work. I'm trying to create myself, you know, family, etc. But that's not to say that both can exist with a listener. You know, I've got my audio shows, and I do have video shows where I like to sometimes see the reference they're making, or see their faces, you know, when they're saying these whatever outlandish things. So I think there's just room for both. I think it's really honing in on the uniqueness of both mediums, and just doubling down on that, but at the same time, the heart of it is a storytelling I think that's my big takeaway. Is emphasizing storytelling, community and emotion, because I think that's going to make you stand out from, you know, the wave of AI slap that they got you convinced

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 58:11

is coming. Now, we have talked, you know, a lot about different YouTubers and things like that that we watch. And then, from an audio perspective, you've talked about the shows that you only listen to audio version. I want to throw one out there. It's hidden brain. It's consistently one of the top podcasts. But they are audio, from what I understand, they're audio only. But maybe to your greater point is that, you know, once I've built in that listening habit to one show on one channel, then I'm going to go to that channel and listen to it. Odd lots is another one that is, you know, very I don't want to it's not as narrative storytelling as hidden brain is, but I still only listen to the audio version when I know that there's a YouTube version of the same show, and so, you know, from that lens, it's, how do you build that initial relationship with your audience? But then also, don't betray it, for the sake of, you know, trying to be different things to different people.

Unknown: 59:04

And I think it goes back to we were saying it's like you can do both. There is success stories, there is plenty of listeners to be to be had in both. You know, it's not a scarcity thing in either or, you know, judging on what research or study you're looking at today, you know, YouTube might seem more appealing, or audio podcast might seem more appealing. I think either you can decide to do one or the other, you could try to do both. You're more power to you. But I think whatever way that you lean into, you really lean into it and maximize on that specific mediums uniqueness. If it's audio, then you put a little more emphasis on the production quality, the sound quality, the storytelling aspect of it, the routine, the intimacy of it. If it's YouTube, then you really buckle down into, you know, playing the YouTube game, having strong thumbnails titles. I think, you know, I attended that SEO one, and I, like I said, I didn't have an epiphany on anything brand new, but it was like all of those fields in YouTube that you fill out when you put out a video, they're there for a reason, you know, like, why not try to fill it out as much as you can, or have what you can exactly as much as you can? So to tie it all back, you know, if you choose Audio, lean into it. If you go video, lean into it. There is, I think, an area for both, but you got to be a little more conscious about it.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:00:27

Okay, I think that's a really good place to end it. But I do have to ask one last question because friend of the show, Matthew Leffler, armchair attorney, he has had this question for you for a while. For me, for you, this one is and we need to finally answer it. And his question was, and Dr Doom put on the One Ring, whoa. Would he be able to resist it, or would he be able to use it? Because Sauron is the only person that can really wield its power. But can Dr Doom resist the urge of the ring and wield that power?

Unknown: 1:01:02

I think, complicated question, Matthew. If you were to look back in Dr dooms history and lore and various stories, he has obtained artifacts of great, immense power that I think you could say would be on par with the One Ring, the Cosmic Cube comes to mind. He's had the Infinity Gauntlet. He has been in positions where he has been all powerful, or had the ability and. Doc, in the end, he always ends up, you know, falling to he's always gets defeated. You know, he falls to the power itself. I think Dr Doom would be able to wield the One Ring for quite a bit. I think Dr dooms thing, the thing that I thoroughly enjoy about him is this innate willpower that he is so firmly believes that he is right, that his path is, is the correct one, that He is all knowing that he's the only one that is capable of harnessing power to in his twisted sense of good or order and justice. I think, I think so. I think Dr Doom would, but to say that, I think he would, it would be a very conscious thing. He'd always have to be walking the line. And if someone like Reed Richards the Avengers were to come through and, you know, mess up his plans, Dr Doom would probably, would probably succumb to that temptation, because he is also someone that is very ego driven, you know, does not like to be, you know, told otherwise. And I think if it meant the difference between being defeated or, you know, succumbing to the power to defeat his enemies to maintain that power, it would be a slippery slope. But I think for a strong amount of time with little opposition, Dr dune would wield that ring.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:02:48

Sounds like some podcaster comparisons in there too, to forget the ego and forget seeking power, maybe just focus on doing good in the world. I don't know if that much

Unknown: 1:02:58

like Batman, where he is very prep driven. You know, he's not going to just come up with a half assed plan. He would be very aware of the dangers in the history of the One Ring, and he would find a way to devise, whether it be some sort of machine or a call upon the dark arts, to figure out a way to wield it, but, and it's true, but at some point his own vanity and ego would be his downfall,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:03:23

as such the case with all villains. So thank you, Matthew, for the question. We finally got it answered.

Unknown: 1:03:29

I had a couple months to prep for that. I did. I, you know, thought about that question.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:03:36

Well, for folks who are interested in comic books and pop culture, where can they find you? Find your show.

Unknown: 1:03:42

For all you nerdy business owners that want to talk nerdy, you can follow me on the short box podcast, which is available everywhere you get your podcast. But one thing I learned at this podcast is that you shouldn't say that, because you might not find it. So you can go to the shortbox podcast.com and I have a list of apps and platforms that I'm on, and you should check it out if you like hearing from some of the best comic creators in the world. I've got plenty of interviews if you like hearing me debate things like with Dr doom. Be able to wield the One Ring. You'll find that too once again. B short box podcast.com

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:04:14

and also very good audio experience as well. Thank you. Thank you bhatter for coming on for the first time. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of everything is logistics, where we talk all things supply chain, for the thinkers in freight, if you liked this episode, there's plenty more where that came from. Be sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast app so you never miss a conversation. The show is also available in video format over on YouTube, just by searching everything as logistics. And if you're working in freight logistics or supply chain marketing, check out my company, digital dispatch. We help you build smarter websites and marketing systems that actually drive results, not just vanity metrics. Additionally, if you're trying to find the right freight tech tools or partners without getting buried in buzzwords, head on over to cargorex.io where we're building the largest database of logistics services and solutions. All the links you need are in the show notes. I'll catch you in the Next episode in go jags. You you.