South America’s Mega Ports & The Future of Drone Delivery [best-of-2025]

It’s birthday week at Everything is Logistics! To celebrate, we’re digging into the vault to cover the heavy hitters: Janet Labuta explains why "importing is not for cowards," Kevin Lawton drops a truth bomb on why 90% of warehouses are still manual, Grace Sharkey helps us navigate the hype of delivery drones, and we take a deep dive into the booming infrastructure of South America.

• Key Takeaways: 
  • Why AI is the only way to stay ahead of Customs and Border Protection.
  • The psychological and financial barriers to warehouse automation.
  • The "Great Rerouting": How China is bypassing global choke points.
• Timestamps:
  • 04:09 – Janet Labuta on Customs & Compliance
  • 1:10:29 – Kevin Lawton on Robotics Hype vs. Reality
  • 1:36:30 – Grace Sharkey on Drone Logistics
  • 2:06:17 – South American Mega Ports & Infrastructure

Watch the video versions of these episodes:

• Importing Is Not for Cowards with Maersk's Janet Labuda
• Why 90% of Warehouses Are Still Manual with Kevin Lawton of New Warehouse Podcast
• Warehouse and Delivery Drones 
•  South American Logistics 

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Transcript

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 0:37

Blythe, welcome into another Best of edition of everything is logistics, a podcast for the thinkers and freight. I am your host, Blythe Milligan, and we are proudly presented by SPI logistics. And in this final part of our best of series, I had to actually split it up into two different episodes, because there was just, frankly, too many favorites to choose from. And so these episodes are not included in our previous episodes, but they were so good, and I loved them so much, and you clearly loved them, as I saw it, in the numbers, they were just too many to not include somehow in this mix. And so when these episodes release, we are releasing Part One and Part Two all in the same week, and it's my birthday week. On January 6 is my birthday. And so that part one, which is the episode you are listening to right now, will released, and then in a couple of days, we will have that part two, but for the sake of this episode, and the reason why you probably clicked play on it, here are the four episodes that we are going to feature. Starting off with the title, importing is not for cowards, with Maersk Janet labuta. And Janet labuta has worked for customs and border protection for most of her career before joining Maersk A while ago, long years ago, and so it is one of my favorite interviews that I have ever had in the history of my career. And so we're starting off strong with that great conversation. Love Janet, and this is a mental reminder that I actually have to get her back on the show because that conversation was so good. Next up is the episode that we had with Kevin Lawton of the new warehouse podcast, talking about why 90% of warehouses are still manual, which is a shocking stat. We recorded that episode live at manifest, the future of supply chain and logistics. And so it's a great conversation that lasts about 2425 minutes, I believe, but it is jam packed with a lot of great insight from Kevin, also a fellow podcaster. Next up on the list is grace. Sharkey returns, and we are talking about warehouse and delivery drones. And so we talk about the current state of the market. What other countries, like China, are doing in the delivery drone market, and what we kind of foresee that that's going to happen here in the States. And so that's a great clip that we pulled from a freight Friends episode. And then lastly, for this one, one of my favorite topics that we are rounding it out, this is probably going to be my favorite episode of the entire year, just because of all of the topics that we cover in it, but South American logistics, which is just such an amazing story to watch unfold, how, you know, super ports, Peru just has a, you know, just launched, or opened up a mega port on their coast, and they're trans, they're, they're Having all of these, I don't say transplant, but trans shipments, that's the right phrase for it. But they have these trans shipments that arrive in Peru, and then the freight gets put onto barges and it's shipped across the Amazon River into all different aspects of the South American continent. It's just fascinating to watch a lot of these stories unfold, to see the roads getting built, and to see how you know truck drivers are, you know, using these roads or not using and some of these roads because of the danger that they present, it's just, it's a really fascinating glimpse into a continent that is just booming with innovation and infrastructure. And it's really, really cool to witness in the modern realm that we sort of find ourselves, where we can see these things starting to play out on social media, on digital media, and be able to stay updated and watch it along the process. So I hope you enjoy these episodes as much as I did recording them and then also kind of revisiting them in our annual best of series. So enjoy. Welcome into another episode of everything. Is logistics, a podcast for the thinkers in freight. My name is Blythe Milligan, and we are proudly presented by SPI logistics, and we've got a banger of a show for you today, because we have Janet labuta, she is the head of customs and trade issues at Maersk customs services, and we're going to be talking about the complexities around global trade and how your company can help navigate those complexities. So Janet, welcome to the show.

Unknown: 5:11

Well, thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here with you in the audience. Absolutely.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 5:16

And I we were just talking off air about how I had heard you speak at a CSC cscmp event last year, and good friend of the show, also on a on regularly Grace Sharkey said that she was very jealous that I was interviewing you today. So she says hello, and she says that she loves you, and she can't wait to hear the discussion. So we'll say.

Unknown: 5:37

Thank you, and the feeling is very mutual. So

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 5:41

well, one of the regular topics that Grace and I actually talk about on our regular episodes together is the show to catch a smuggler. I'm sure you've seen it.

Unknown: 5:52

I've seen it. I've caught them. I've been there. Awesome.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 5:58

I was hoping that we would, that we would bond on that show, because it is really, as someone who, you know, got my logistics start at a trucking company. I didn't really, and it was all domestic freight. I didn't really know of all of the complexities that surround, you know, sort of customs and trade and what you know the border team does. And for folks who may not be aware, could you give us sort of that high level overview, because you spent more than 30 years in customs, border trade before joining mariskin. So give us a little bit of a, you know, I guess, a high level overview of what that role, or that, you know, institution entails.

Unknown: 6:35

Well, you know, it's the face at the border for everything, and customs is responsible for really enforcing the law for many different federal and state, you know, regulators and so the really, the customs job is extraordinarily challenging and complex. And if you know, if you look in my day, there's one level of trade, and it was just starting to really take off. And today, you know, the the amount of imports has grown exponentially over the years. We now have the dynamic of de minimis and all of this e commerce dynamic, you know, the trade community has changed to meet the requirements of the consumer, and as a result, customs is in the same situation, and they have to meet the requirements, really, of other regulations and the law and what Congress is really kind of expecting customs to do as far as regulating the trade, and yet they are being bombarded with all of this, all of these packages, and the amount of trade coming across the border. There is a lot of fraud. There's no doubt about it. I think we're seeing things right now with regard to that fentanyl coming into the country, we're seeing things with regard to really, what I call misdescription, illegal transshipment, the entire tariff dynamic, with regard to the 301, anti dumping tariffs. Every time you have a new regulation or law, there are people out there whose job it is to circumvent that, and that's the challenge that customs always has. You know, what's the balance between legitimate trade and facilitation? And then how do we really uncover the fraud, the violations, the smuggling, etc.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 8:39

Well, with all of that, you know, just explosion and growth of what you were just talking about, how do you know what to focus on and what not to focus on?

Unknown: 8:51

Well, you know, one of the things is you really have to prioritize what you're doing, and you have to prioritize the compliance dynamic, and you want the biggest bang for your buck, and that's that's a problem that customs kind of always has to deal with, because they're being pushed and pulled in a lot of different directions. And as a result, you know, they have to be very, very upfront with regard to what their priorities are. And you know, we see that there are a lot of conflicting priorities, and as a result, customs will always tell you that they can't really resource their way out of situations. And as a result, they punt to the trade community and they say, Okay, you're responsible for your own compliance. You're responsible for understanding who's in your supply chain, you're responsible for understanding not only who's in the supply chain, but what they're doing in that supply chain. And so the the penalties, the exposure that you know importers have, is really getting very, very challenging and complex for the importing community.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 10:00

And so how do you navigate some of those complexities? Because I imagine, for a lot of businesses, maybe they've been around for, you know, 2030, years, and they're having to, you know, not only navigate all of these additional regulations, but also the technology that has, you know, come on to the scene in the last five to seven years. How do you know what to do if you are an importer or a shipper?

Unknown: 10:24

Well, one of the things I you know, I always say to a number of our clients that are importers, you know, you know, you don't have the level of data that's out there. You wouldn't be able to afford. The level of data that's out there. Secondly, really, in your compliance departments, you don't have the analytical skills to take data and make you know conclusions with regard to that data. As far as your risk is concerned, you know many importers, they understand their first level in the in the supply chain, but they don't go beyond that. They may have a buyer, and they say, Okay, here's the product we want to get on the shelf. Here's what it looks like. How many pieces we need. You know when we want it, here's our price points, things like that. You go find it and and in many instances, they don't want to take on any other responsibility. But today, the regulators and the Congress is telling the employers, you have to understand this. And from my perspective, they cannot do this alone. You know there's there's two things that I see on the horizon. One is the use of artificial intelligence, and there are providers out there, and I you know, MERS, custom services, partners with Altana. And Altana is also a product that's being used, a solution, product that's being used by us, Customs and Border Protection. And I always say to our clients, isn't it grand to be able to have the same thing that Customs has to see, the same thing that customs is seeing, and customs is using these solutions to determine risk, and that's what the importer should be using. They need to go outside their own sphere. Many times, importers will say, Well, I send out a questionnaire, and I send it out to my first tier supplier, and I tell them to send it to the second tier, third tier, etc. And then I say to them, how do you verify and validate the information you're receiving back? This is a very number one subjective approach. You cannot verify and validate the information. It takes so long to collect that type of information and make sense out of it. And if you're using the technology that's out there, such as artificial intelligence, you can synthesize this information in minutes. The other thing that's critical is really to have a partner in the brokerage area that is ethical, has integrity and really provides the level of compliance support that you need. I always say a good broker really is a force multiplier for the importing community. There are a lot of folks out there that are not that concerned in the broker area with compliance, and I've seen it firsthand. And there are others that really, really take this issue extremely seriously and works with their importing community. We are at the point where, you know, you hate to be trite, but it takes a village.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 14:34

And what do you mean by by that? It takes a village because it you I think it also maybe would coincide with a broker who wants to be better. So how, I guess, how do you know how to be better? Is it just talking to other three PLS, or other brokers?

Unknown: 14:49

Well, I think there's, you know, associations, you know, you've got the the various associations out there for brokers. I think that if you build like MERS custom services has built an outstanding compliance department for their clients, they really keep their finger on the pulse with regard to new regulations, new laws coming out new requirements. You know, you talk about the Lacey Act changing just a few days ago and adding more requirements on importers. It's really getting out there and really understanding what's happening in the trade community. I don't think it's necessary to rely on other importers, brokers, but I think it's very, very important to rely on the associations that really do provide a great deal of information, the conferences, things of that nature. So I think that is very, very important to really understand that that part of it, and you will know when you are compliant, when customs is not doing anything to the entries coming in.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 15:52

Yeah, that's as long as you don't get a knock on your door, I imagine from your team then, right?

Unknown: 15:58

And you know, a lot of importers tell me they got now, well, do you think I'll really get caught? And I say, Well, do you really want to take that chance?

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 16:08

You shouldn't have said that to someone like Janet first

Unknown: 16:11

Right, exactly you know and you know what, what's your appetite for risk? And in this day and age, as a an ethical you know broker, an ethical importer, being concerned about your brand, being concerned about your financial standing, and. I have seen any number of importers really get into trouble with customs, where their goods have been detained. They've missed their selling season. They've now had to hire external attorneys, they've been given penalties, they've lost product. Do you want that in your company? And really you should be looking at this and saying, What happens if I miss my season? What happens if I have to pay $2 million in penalties? What happens to me if my brand is damaged? And I think these are the type of questions that importers really need to ask themselves to be able to determine and identify, really, what is your risk appetite? And it should be a very small appetite that you have for risk your appetite for compliance should be very, very, very, very big. Your risk appetite should be very, very small.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 17:27

So how do you how do you start? How do you begin a, you know, a proper compliance program.

Unknown: 17:34

Well, I know one of the things that that MERS custom services does is they do a compliance review for importers, and they, you know, they look, what are you bringing in? What are the countries of origin? Are there any specific regulatory challenges to your product. Okay, do we have anti dumping, countervailing duty? Have we had problems with, you know, forced labor in this area? So what is your exposure in that way, where you where you kind of can look at the the importer, and, of course, I suggest the importer do that themselves. I think that really one of the most important departments in any importing company is the compliance department. And there should be a process where you're looking at, where are you sourcing, what are you what are your sourcing habits? Again? What Are there any particular requirements that are over and above the normal, hey, I valued it correctly, you know, I, I, you know, classified the product correctly, etc, you know, am I? Am I leaning toward any type of unnecessary risk for my company? And I think again, partnering with a good broker will allow you to get those insights and to microscopically Look at that. The other thing you can do is you can use third party providers with regard to artificial intelligence, because those algorithms of risk are built into the data set. And you can see, oh, hey, wait a minute, I've got a red flag potentially here on this product, with regard to this country, and not only that, drilling down to, you know, with regard to a supplier. So I think that that's important. The other thing that's important is generally looking at, you know, the rulings and the legal determinations that customs makes with regard to product coming into the into the country, so especially with regard to using, you know, free trade agreements or trade preference programs. Am I really understanding how my product is being made? Do I really understand that it meets the rules to get a preference, and that's going to be, I think, in 2025 more and more of a focus for the government, it's going to be forced labor. It's going to be okay if we're going to be doing more near shoring and using more free trade agreements like the usmca or, you know, the CAFTA agreement. Am I really in compliance? Customs tells me that not only do they want to know about who's in the supply chain and what's being done in the supply chain, they also want to know how goods, inherently are being made. So what are the component pieces? Because, for example, we know with forced labor, it's not just necessarily the final product that they're looking at. It could be any component to that. And I think that, you know, one of the examples that I give is I had one client who was detained, and they said, you know, it's, it's wearing apparel, but we got all the cotton from India, and it's organic. And I was like, Oh, that's a slam dunk, no problem. But then they shipped that cotton, the raw cotton, to be ginned in China, and customs came back to me and said, prove that not one thread of the Chinese cotton that was in the shipment before this one that was ginned got into this product. So we're not talking about a situation where we're just looking at the final product. You could have one thread in. In a shirt, and that entire thing is tainted. It's contaminated, and it's subject to detention, it's subject to seizure. So the old ways really aren't going to work. People have to really and when I say people, I mean people in the trade community have to strategically put a plan together as to how they're going to address number one, you know, the products that they're bringing in, where they're bringing them in from, and then what do I do if I get a detention? What do I do if I have a problem with regard to the goods being seized and I no longer have a season that I can meet, I can no longer put product on the shelf. And I think that's, you know, what people really, really have to have to do. How accurate is the data that I'm getting? How confident do I feel in what's happening? And as I said, I think you know what I say is more and more companies need to push the compliance structure further away from the port of entry as possible, to the point where you say, Can I really put this product on the ship, the truck, the train, the airplane, whatever it is to ship it to the country of import, or do I have enough risk that I can pretty well think that customs is going to detain these goods when they arrive. And, you know, it's, it's a many of these things, obviously, are global problems. They're not just problems with regard to the US, you know, January 1, we have the European Union coming in with their forced labor requirements. And again, it's not country specific, like the UF LPA is, but it is an across the board. We've got Canada that's operating, you know, Mexico is starting to gin things up. And my understanding is the Department of Homeland Security is reaching out to our trade partners to have more harmonization, to do best practice sharing, to show how US Customs has enforced, you know, the forced labor laws, etc. And I think, you know, in 2025 there are going to be a number of trade what they call remedies. You may also want to call them weaponizations. Okay, that that may be used with regard to the, you know, geopolitical leverage, such as tariffs. And we've seen this, you know, the rhetoric with regard recently, in the last week or so, with regard to Mexico and Canada, we've seen this in regard to our relationships in China. I think more and more the US is going to look at, you know, what's our trade relationship with the entire African continent? You know, we have the African Growth and Opportunity Act, but will we see more free trade agreements? Because here we have a dynamic right now where China is saying we're not going to export critical minerals. We know that Africa is a critical mineral area for us. We know how important critical minerals are for all our electronics, etc. So I think there's going to be a lot of challenges, a lot of complexities, and some shifting as we go forward in 2025 but the operative word is going to continue to be enforcement of the law.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 25:08

And so we've talked a lot about the companies that that want to be compliant, that want to do the right thing, but what about the flip side of things you know, kind of where, you know, the, I guess, the juicy to catch a Snuggler, you know, type actions are taking place. How do you how do you find the companies that don't want to look and make sure that that, you know, one thread of cotton is not in compliance. And so how do you, how do you find those bad guys? Well, I

Unknown: 25:38

think, you know, I laugh, because when I was in customs, and I, as you mentioned, I was there over 30 years, and I really worked on the trade enforcement side. And, you know, one of the things that I said when I saw the new, you know, artificial intelligence approach. I was like, Wow, if I had this one when I was in customs, I would have been sitting in the catbird seat. And I think one of the things is that if you have a good system and a good solution using AI that's helping you with you know, your risk assessments as a regulator, a lot of these things are going to bubble to the surface very quickly. You're going to see problems in the supply chain. You're going to see people move in and out of the supply chain. You're going to see people change their business relationships. You're going to see people beyond the scene for three you know, transactions, and then all of a sudden they disappear, and you will see them come up. Again as a new company, and as you look more and more at that type of information, it's going to become pretty obvious that you have a potential risk when I you know, when I was in customs, just before I retired, I worked on a product that was probably the best thing I ever did in my entire career. So I'm glad I didn't. I didn't retire two years earlier. But we called it operation Mirage, and it was, you know, what you see is not what's there, okay? And we were looking at the importation of textile products and wearing apparel into the US, because some people in the trade community had gotten in touch with me and said, you know, there's something wrong. I can't compete with the prices that I'm seeing. And really, we started to dig into, you know, who was bringing the product in, what did we know about them? And we then found out, after a series of attempted visits, that 55% of the companies that we were looking at did not exist at the addresses in the United States that they said they were operating out of. And as a result, we found out that we had players overseas that were orchestrating all of these transactions, and they had no presence in the United States. So at the time, my boss said, Oh, and penalize them. I said, How do you penalize Casper the ghost? They're not here. Okay, so there's a lot that goes on that I think now with the type of data that we have, the type of analytical skills, the machine learning, etc, I think, gives us a great deal more insight into actually what is happening in the transaction or not happening in that transaction.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 28:24

How, in your experience? How? How much, how, how willing, I guess, are other countries and their customs and border departments willing to work with the US?

Unknown: 28:37

Well, I think they will be willing to work with the US. But I also think that in many instances, it's kind of difficult, okay, the inherent regulatory framework may be different the level of expertise may be different. You know, I'm, at heart a customs person, so I always look very, very positively at the custom services. I have done work in Vietnam with the custom service. There, done work in the Republic of Georgia. I've been all over Africa, the Far East, etc. But I also think that there's a lot of challenges. There's there's challenges with regard to, you know, obviously the level of expertise, I think that there's challenges in some areas, with regard to corruption. There's challenges with, you know, differences in priorities. There's, you know, obviously some countries out there that don't have any laws with regard to forced labor. In some instances, the custom service services overseas. It's the only way that any kind of solid, regular revenue is coming into the government. So as a result, you know, their priority is totally revenue driven. So you know, are the goods declared correctly? Are they classified correctly? Are they valued correctly? And some countries, you know, they they see certain things that are prohibited, and other countries don't see the same things that are prohibited. So, you know, trying to use an organization like the, you know, the rural Customs Organization, and we now have, you know, former US Customs and Border Protection, Ian sounders as as the head of the WCO and using platforms like that to raise concerns, to raise issues that are maybe not as much transparent in other countries, or that you don't have a uniformity of approach. I mean, it was through the WCO and the WTO that you wound up getting the Harmonized Tariff Schedule, because before that, everybody had their own way of, you know, obviously classifying the goods trade is global, and there has to be a harmonization. And, you know, there has to be a commitment to assist each other in trying to address the risk, the inherent risks and trade, we'd like to sit back and think that everything that's coming across the border is compliant and, you know, doesn't have any violations, and there's no fraud being committed, and everybody's doing what they're supposed to do, but that's a wee bit.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 31:30

Naive? Are there any? I'm sure there are. But which commodities are the most challenging when it comes to customs?

Unknown: 31:41

Well, I you know, I think in a number of years that I worked there, I had the textile portfolio, and it's probably one of the most regulated the clothing that's on your back is one of the most regulated items, commodities that come into the United States. And of course, you know, one of the things that you have to look at is, if you're using a trade preference program, the rules can be very arcane. So the more that you're using trade preferences, getting duty free treatment, the rules can really wrap you around an axle. No pun intended, really, I think other things that that you know. So the textile industry certainly really understanding the component pieces of electronics and, you know, critical minerals and things like that. The other day, somebody at DHS said to me, where do we start enforcing critical minerals, you know, how do we get back to the mine? You know, with textiles, how do we get back to the cotton field. So you know, it depends where in the supply chain your risk is. If you're looking at the final factory where something's being made, and somebody's sitting in that factory, and they are in a forced labor dynamic, that's one thing. But if you're pushing back through the entire chain to a field, to a mine, that's where it becomes very, very, very challenging.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 33:17

And then how do, I guess, you You protect against, maybe a mine, or, you know, a textile facility that was compliant, maybe they, you know, become less compliant over time. How do you, how do you find out that there's a problem there, and then alert the rest of your customers or importers that there could be a problem?

Unknown: 33:39

Well, you know, one of the things is that, you know, from a customs perspective, I'll speak now, you know, customs doesn't very often tell you, hey, the risk is Acme over in such and such a place, okay? They'll just tell you, Okay, you know, we're going to be looking at this particular commodity. We're going to be looking this particular country of origin. Understand your chain, okay? And, you know, one of the things that we see is there's a lot of illegal transshipment, so that all of a sudden you start looking at things. I remember, I remember working on garlic years ago, and garlic at the time, had the highest anti dumping duty rate. It was something like 327% and the garlic association in the US was very, very concerned about garlic coming in and whatnot. And, you know, you look at these things, and all of a sudden you start seeing shifts. So you you look, and they say, okay, garlic from from China. All of a sudden, China disappears. And then you start seeing Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, Bangladesh, and they weren't in the mix before at all. So now you've diffused the product and the problem. Okay, as soon as you do that, it's it's like a tentacle approach. The web is being spun. Everybody is moving in different directions, and that's why I say artificial intelligence really shows you that movement before, when I was in customs, we have all these charts, and we'd be plotting and planning it, you know, everything, and it felt like we were detectives in A murder mystery. And sometimes you'd hit it and sometimes you wouldn't. And I would always say, Well, you know, we go after low hanging fruit, because it's easy to go after, and you find things that way. Things have become much more complex. And I think using, you know, the technology that's out there now gives you the insights, and then, you know, we're then able to say, hey, we're seeing this in your chain. And you may want to look more carefully at this. You may want to engage your suppliers. You may want to change your suppliers. You may really want to change your country of origin and make sure that one of the things we also look at is who owns everybody in the chain? So, you know, that's, that's the thing. It's somebody new in the chain. Where did they come from? Those are the things that you start to ask questions about. And, you know, we talk to our clients. Can. Continuously as we see different things, and we certainly send out, you know, client advisories and things of that nature. And of course, I do what we call these quarterly business reviews with our key clients. And I always tell them, Okay, here's the here's the crystal ball. Look. Just so you know, my crystal ball is cracked. But here's what I see in the crystal ball. What's happening. Here are your vulnerabilities, your potential vulnerabilities with the product that you're bringing in. Here's what I've heard through the grapevine. You may want to look more carefully at this. You may want us to do an audit and check out what's happening. You may also want to look at a third party provider that has data that you don't and then has analytical skills that you don't to look at what's happening.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 37:25

I anecdotally, I from going through, you know, I guess airport security, which I know is not probably, you know, customs related, but, you know, watching, going back to the, you know, to catch a smuggler show, and then to listening to, you know, a lot of the the points that you're making about, AI, I'm curious. It feels like the customs border, that team really is the one of the first that's adopting new technology and new trends. Am I off base in that thinking? Because it seems like there's a lot of tech going on, and y'all are fully embracing it, which is cool to see.

Unknown: 37:58

Yeah, no, I think you're, you're totally right. And I think the thing that really pushed it is the E commerce dynamic. And, you know, customs was being drowned in small packages, and then all of a sudden they have issues with regard to all you got this, you know, Uyghur forced labor Prevention Act that you have to enforce immediately. Then you have, you know, the 301, tariffs. So I think there was so much hitting them and again, using the term that they use, we can't resource our way out of this in terms of human resources, but we have to have resources that are technologically advanced to be able to help us resource through this. And I think that's that's really what happened, and they really went cutting edge on some of these things. And as a matter of fact, I was exposed to Altana AI because of the former commissioner of customs who's on their board. And he said, you know, you work the trade angle of everything. Look at this and tell me what you think. And I did work not for the company, but with the company for about a year and a half to help perfect what the solution provides, because I was seeing the challenges, the problems that not only our clients were having, but also recognizing, when I was a customs official, the same challenges and complexities that a regulator would have. And so I think customs was very, very smart to pick up this information. And you know, some of our clients say, Well, how do we know this information is accurate? I said by the mere fact that customs is using it, they have a great deal of confidence in that information, and I would say that level of confidence that Customs has should spill over to your company.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 39:58

And so how do, I guess, you start use, how do you know what AI to use, what AI to trust? I mean, it sounds like that, that the company that you worked with for, you know, a year and a half or worked with, it sound like they have one of the top tier solutions when it comes to analyzing those different I guess risk assessments is that what they're I guess the the software is doing is that it technically plugs in to an importer's database and then maybe raises red flags.

Unknown: 40:25

Yeah, that's part of it. But, you know, they have some analysts. For example, when PVC flooring came up, that one, one analyst who worked in China, worked in the PVC industry, understood the industry could look at the data and say, Now this doesn't look right. It's not a solution that you just throw at the importer and say, Okay, now figure it out yourself. Okay, you can't do that. And the other thing is, what I always say is you're looking at the same thing that customs is looking at, and that, I think, is one way to really identify who you're going to use in this space. And I think you ask those questions, are you you know? Is any government organization using this? Is any non government organization using this? Who are your clients, you know? And going out and checking with those clients, getting references and saying, you know, have they helped you? Have Have you had issues? Have they been able to identify risk that you did not see and that you were able to take, you know, positive steps to ameliorate that risk? So I think that's, you know, that's one of the key things, is, you know, to be able to sit back and say, Hey, customs is using this. It's not going to hurt you to use this either.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 41:53

How much of a dramatic impact you mentioned e commerce having this large impact on on customs? What about from the the the temu, the she in angle? I think I heard you mentioned at that cscmp talk that they're responsible for 30% of all shipments coming in on the West Coast?

Unknown: 42:13

Yeah, I believe so, yes. And, you know, and I just saw the other day that there is a US government investigation with regard to the temu process. And so I think that there's the potential, you know, when you're flooding the market with many, many products. How compliant is the temu company? I can't say. I don't know specifically, but I think it raises questions when you have someone that is so engaged in E commerce, you know who's watching the store, so to speak. So I think there are questions that need to be asked, there are processes that need to be looked at, maybe some tightening up needs to be done. I can't say specifically, because I don't know you know how they operate. There's been many allegations, but you know you have to prove the allegations. And I'm not in a position to say anything about that, really. I can only say, You know what I've seen, you know in the press, and you know what the government is look, you know, looking at etc, that they do have some concerns, and somebody has to do that, that look see, to find out exactly what's going on.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 43:40

Does Amazon kind of fit into that same boat, or do they have a whole do they have to technically follow all of the US regulations? I mean, obviously they do. But are they in maybe a different category from an E commerce perspective, because I think they're also opening up a factory to compete with, or a shipping location infrastructure in Southeast Asia in order to compete with temu and Shein. Are they going to face, or are do they face the same sort of challenges as a Shein or temu.

Unknown: 44:12

Well, I, you know, I think that we always have to remember that whoever the importer of record is is responsible for the compliance. So if you know, if you've got a third party in there that nobody knows about, there's still a responsibility on the part of the team, who's the shins, the Amazons, etc, to make sure that you know products are not prohibited, that you're bringing in product that is in compliance, that follows the rules and regulations. And you know, I think because Amazon is a US company, they're much more aware of what their responsibilities are, and they take those responsibilities extremely seriously that I know personally. And so, you know, you can compete, but the competition has to be such that compliance is the key factor to what you're doing, you know, and how, how compliant you know, other countries businesses are, that remains to be seen.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 45:22

Where is there? So we've talked to, you know, about, you know, fentanyl coming over the border, and how that that's a huge issue. You know, maybe some, some other companies are trying to skirt regulations. But do you have maybe a favorite case, or, you know, a favorite investigation that you're you led on your team, and how did you, I guess, discover it?

Unknown: 45:44

Well, you know, again, I think operation Mirage was my all time favorite, because what happened was the trade community tipped me off to it. Somebody in the trade community and I decided that this really critically needed to be looked at. And at the end of the day, what we determined was that even in this small universe of companies that were shipping to the US and importing into the US, we lost over a billion dollars in revenue from just about 160 companies. And if you look at the number of companies that are operating in the US, it's the hundreds of 1000s. And you know, you make the leap of faith that people are trying to do the right thing. So. How do you carve out those that are not trying to do the right thing? And then, what is that impact? And how do you stop it? You know, one of the things I say, and I say this about AI as well, is you need a, not a reactive model. You need a predictive model. And, and very often, you know, we look at, oh, this happened before, and they did this, they put a false wall in a container, or they did it using this particular methodology, and it's going to happen again, and then it doesn't, because they know, you know, and they've shifted to something else, okay, so really understanding and having somebody out there that really has access to a lot of data that can be crunched very quickly. And like I said, Operation Mirage was was such that one of the questions that I raised was, here, you here, you have importers or supposed importers on paper, and they're not there. And how does that really affect the whole security angle, the anti terrorism angle, the CT Pat angle of how businesses are, you know, bringing products into the United States, if they're lying about who they are and where they are, what's to say, they're not lying about everything else. And so, you know, Operation Mirage gave us that that look see into kind of the underworld and the dark side of of importing in a in a violative environment. So that's what, you know, that's probably about my best one. I mean, I found other, you know, companies that misdescribed goods, like, you know, patio furniture and it's textiles, or, you know, things of that nature, because textiles has some of the most, highest tariff rates on them, because it is such a protected industry, and so you don't want to, you know, you don't want to pay, you know, 30% on a polyester shirt coming in. So you're going to call it something that has a zero duty rate, you know, you're going to call it a patio chair or whatever.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 48:48

Okay, that's interesting, because I just was thinking of my camera that I have that that's recording this right now, and in order to get it, or in order to order it, I guess they had to ship it as a camera, and not a video camera, because the tax rates or the import rates were higher, but there's gonna go After you. Am I the importer of record in that

Unknown: 49:13

probably, oh my gosh, that

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 49:18

is getting cut from the conversation,

Unknown: 49:20

right? And then you have penalties next, and you,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 49:24

oh no, well, it's just, it's just a it's a different camera.

Unknown: 49:27

Yeah, right, right, yeah, I was going to use it as a different camera, and then found out I could use it as a video. Yeah, exactly, you know, really, some of the tariffs with regard to, for example, the anti dumping duty. Sometimes these tariffs are not on the product, per se, but what the product is being used for. So, you know, you could have a microphone, and if you use the microphone in a radio, or whatever, you know, it then becomes subject to the duty, and if you use it for something else, it doesn't. So that's another complexity for customs, you know, how is this product? Not only how is it made, how is it being used? Who made it? Where did it come from? So there are a lot of, you know, t's to cross and I's to dot, you know,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 50:10

and it sounds like you can't really be an importer unless you have technology in order to help you point out all these things.

Unknown: 50:16

I agree, and I always say that, you know, importing is not for cowards, okay? And really, you know, one of the things that I say as well is that not only is it not for cowards, but you really have to get your hands dirty. Okay, you really have to look. You can't say, oh, I'm just going to forget about that. I had somebody say to me one time, a very large company, years ago, just before, really, I'd say, about two years before, forced labor really hit hard, and I knew it was coming, and I said to this person, you you better look at forced labor, and you better have a strategy in place. And the person looked at me and they said, I don't have time for that. I said, You better make time. I don't. I have too many other things that I have to do grant it okay? You have to build teams. You have to have compliance structures. I was speaking at a C suite conference the other day, and I said to the you know, executives, I said, Look, you know, the most important division. The area in your company is the Compliance Division. You know, they protect your brand. They protect you from, you know, not being able to meet the requirement. They allow you to meet the requirements of getting your product on the shelf. They keep you out of a penalty dynamic. They keep the lawyers at bay. I mean, there's a lot that goes into they keep customs at bay, because once customs finds an issue and they think you really didn't take the steps you were supposed to take, and use reasonable care and have a good compliance structure in place. Now you're on our radar screen. There's no doubt about it, so we're going to look, we're going to dig, and we're going to find because we're going to audit you. We're going to check all your, you know, shipments coming in, so on and so forth. You may have your goods detained. You may have your goods seized. So I think that really, those are the things that you really have to be aware of.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 52:34

What does that, I guess, a standard or a modern compliance department look like? Is it a team of a few people powered by, you know, AI software, or is it, you know, a team of 20, realistically, that are all handling individual roles?

Unknown: 52:49

Well, I think it's probably combination. I think, you know, some companies, I was dealing with one unfortunate client, nice, and the guy said to me, Well, I'm the only one in the compliance department, and I don't really understand all of this. And I thought to myself, maybe this company didn't make the right decision to number one, just have one person number two, have somebody that really didn't understand. I think compliance departments really should be not necessarily top heavy, but I think they have to have the tools and resources available to make the correct decisions with regard to the reasonable care used by the company with regard to, you know, risk assessment and the ability to reach out to third parties to say, hey, we need help. Okay, we can't do it all. There is just too much out there, and it's not going to throttle back, okay? It's just going to, you know, go full steam ahead, engines roaring into 2025, and beyond. There's no doubt about it.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 54:01

And so as I guess, as these companies are starting to, you know, maybe realize it, either, you know, by nature of them being in an unfortunate situation where they have to address it, or maybe they're trying to stay up to date with future regulations that may be coming down the pipeline. You mentioned. You know, with the forced labor, is there anything that's coming down the pipeline that people should start preparing for now?

Unknown: 54:28

Well, you know, I do think Blythe that if you have a good compliance structure, and you have a strategy as to how you're going to, number one, identify risk. Two, how are you going to address the risk? Number three, how are you going to protect your supply chain? Four, how do you really understand what's happening in your supply chain? That goes a long way. You know, one of the things that the government does, which always drives me crazy, and I always said I felt I could really affect better compliance outside of customs than being inside of customs, is the fact that they don't give you any warning. Now, if, if you know the Entity List with regard to the uflpa. Well, I was on a call the other day with DHS, and they said, We're going to, you know, increase the number of companies. They're at 107 now. We're going to increase the number of companies. And you want to say which ones, and you're not going to get an answer, okay, they're just going to say, surprise. Okay, we're going to increase the number of product areas, so commodities, etc. Now they did mention cocoa, they did mention critical minerals, okay, construction material, etc. But it's not like you know, if they pick a commodity out of the air, they're not going to let you know until you see a Federal Register notice that says, you know, on January 1, 2025 you can expect to see XYZ happening, and we're going to add 150 new companies on the Entity List, and you're scrambling as an importer, so you have to have a process in place that allows you the flexibility to move as the risk moves. And frankly, the only thing I see in this day and age that gives companies the tools to be able to do that is the technology inherent in artificial intelligence. I. That can can take inordinate amount of data. You know, if you look at the automated commercial environment and customs, it was one of the biggest IT projects in the world, if not the biggest, okay, and now you've got AI that takes all of that information and in minutes, synthesizes it and gives you red flags and tells you what to look for. And I think that we're in a whole new, different environment. With regard to trade, I always say, you know, people who are romantic say, you know, love makes the world go round. I like to be very practical and real. And say, trade makes the world go round, okay? And the challenges are very, very intense. And of course, obviously you got a difference between, you know, large importers that you know probably can afford to have a good compliance department, and then medium companies and then small companies. How does everybody operate in this space, you know, and how, how do you as a smaller company be able to get the same kind of leverage with regard to the data as a larger company may have, they're more in a situation where they're probably insulated from having, you know, going under, although a large company did go under with regard to having a number of detentions and things like that, but a smaller company has a lot more challenges because they don't have the extra resources. The profit margins may not be that big. Maybe they're saying we can't really get an AI solution at the level that we would like. So there's got to be different levels of approach that they can take in order to protect their business.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 58:28

Is there almost a little bit of leeway or grace that's given to some of the smaller companies that maybe don't have the staff or the budget of the bigger companies.

Unknown: 58:37

No, you know, the rules and the regulations and the laws are the same. If you're an importer, whether you're, you know, bringing in millions of dollars of goods a year, or you're bringing in hundreds of dollars of goods a year, or 1000s of dollars. It doesn't change. And you know, that's that's the issue. And there's no, I don't want to, I hate to use the word de minimis, because we have another dynamic with de minimis. But there's no with regard to some of these violations. There's no de minimis where you could say you had 150 shirts in the in the shipment, and we think one of the shirts was a problem, or one a cuff was the problem, or the collar was the problem. And we'll let all these go this time. It doesn't work that way. You know, once the the regulators determine that the good is tainted, contaminated, you know, affected by a particular problem such as forced labor. You know that that whole shipment is subject to detention, and obviously, again, subject to seizure, so it's in your best interest, yeah, and so, and some people have said to me, Well, what happens if I get caught? Is it like, you know, a penalty, a small penalty, no, no, you lose your product. And think about that. I had one company, small boutique company out on the West Coast. They lost their product. They lost their entire, entire selling season. And that selling season for them represented $10 million and they were a small company that

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:00:17

put them out of business, I would imagine

Unknown: 1:00:19

they were very concerned that they were really on the verge of going out of business.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:00:25

And so what happens to, I guess, all that product? Is it, you know, just destroyed? Is it sent back to the country of origin?

Unknown: 1:00:32

Well, when I worked at the textile program, they used to auction off the product. And I said, How do you auction off violative product? Okay, so we got to the point where everybody agreed we could destroy it. So you could blame me for that,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:00:52

yeah, because I feel like that would be a little unfair if, you know, one entity is able to make money off of it.

Unknown: 1:00:57

And Right, exactly, somebody, you know, they buy it in auction, then they go sell it in some in a flea market. You know, this doesn't make sense. This is not right.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:01:08

So say you're, you're one of these companies. You you have a compliance department. You've adopted AI into your tech stack, and you're trying to do the right thing. How do you know, what are the signals that you are doing the right thing?

Unknown: 1:01:21

Well, I think you know, the biggest signal is you don't get detentions, you don't have customs knocking on your door. And I think you know, using some of these. Things provide you with a good track record of, Hey, I am compliant, because these are the things I'm doing. You know, the standard is reasonable care. Now it's very hard to really figure out what the definition of reasonable care is. When I was in customs, you know, the trade community would come in and they'd say, if I do these 10 things, am I okay? And then our lawyers would say, Well, yeah, those 10 Things are great. But then they'll come back and say, Well, I couldn't do 10. I did nine. Is that okay? And they said, We're not playing that, that game. You have to understand what informed compliance means to you. Okay? And I think you have to go the extra step. And Customs has said this, if you do nothing, that's not a that's a non starter. But if you can say, hey, I'm using AI technology, I understand who's in my my chain, I got rid of three companies in my chain, and changed. I understood where the risk was, and I addressed that risk. 123, I moved out of the country of origin. I changed people in the chain. I changed the way my product is being made. Whatever it is you have to show that steps are being taken to identify risk and to address risk in a very positive way. And Customs has said over and over again in various conferences that I've attended that you really should be using the type of technology that's out there. And you know, in some instances, the other type of technology is, you know, this isotopic testing. And so, you know, I have AI, I use isotopic testing. Here's what, here's my lab reports, here's what I've done. And so I think, you know, you can make a cogent story that resonates with the regulators, but if you do nothing, take my chances, that's not, that's not going to be what customs is looking for.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:03:41

What was the phrase you just said, isotopic testing? What is

Unknown: 1:03:45

isotopic testing? Isotopic testing is a scientific methodology that looks at the isotopes. For example, if you've got cotton, it'll look and it'll determine what, where the soil, where the cotton is grown, and what soil. So if you're, if you're looking at, you know, hey, the cotton shouldn't be really coming from China, from this area. And you do a test, and you see it's almost like the DNA of the product, and it shows, okay, it was grown in this soil. Here's the particular, you know, fingerprint, so to speak, for that soil. And if you could see, oh, the fingerprint is India, didn't go anywhere near China, or the fingerprint is China. So you can, you can look at your product and determine through that level of technology what the sources. And that really started a while back. The other thing is, you know, customs is starting to upgrade a number of their labs, lab in Savannah, Georgia and, I believe, in Los Angeles, where they are also doing isotopic testing on product. So, you know, that's another technology that that can be used. But if you say, you know, hey, I sent out a questionnaire, and this is what they told me, and customs is going to say, Well, did you validate that and verify that. One thing we had the other day was an issue with it with a client who attempted to get some documents and they were counterfeit. So you know, you need something that's objective, not subjective. Somebody made a comment to me the other day in the regulatory sphere that there are document factories being stood up so that you know, when customs ask for documents, boom, they're right. There you got them. But are they legitimate? Do they really tell the correct story? Are they accurate? Can you rely on them? That's what you have to look at.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:05:49

Sounds like the criminals are, you know, there are the bad guys are evolving every step of the

Unknown: 1:05:54

way that and they always have. You know, if I always say, you know, the one, the one occupation we should never have, is locksmiths, because you should leave all you'd be able to leave all your doors open, your windows open. Nobody should bother you. But however, as we know the locks are getting more and more sophisticated because the perpetrators are getting more and more sophisticated.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:06:20

This has been an awesome discussion. I think I got through all of the questions that I wanted to ask. I'm sure I'll think of dozens of more after this is done. But before we conclude. I'm curious is, is there anything coming, maybe down the pipeline, anything that you feel is important, that you know, we should have talked about, that we should have mentioned,

Unknown: 1:06:39

that we haven't already Well, I think, you know, as I said, you know, the crystal ball approach to things, you know, what do we think potentially could happen in the future, with regard to trade, once we had the new administration in place, you know, I think the ever evolving issues with regard to forced labor, I don't think that's going to ease up. That's a non partisan issue. And I think that, for example, if Marco Rubio gets confirmed as Secretary of State, he was the sponsor of the Uyghur forced labor Prevention Act is nothing is going away. We've got the use of tariffs potentially in a geopolitical dynamic. I think the whole sanctions issue and how do you leverage that type of dynamic when you you know you have adversaries out there. Trade is more and more being used in that way to try to really address what people would think might be inequities, unfair trade, not having a level playing field. And I think more and more that we're going to see that type of approach in future.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:07:57

Yeah, it sounds like these things are have always evolved, and they will continue to always evolve, which is why it's probably great to have someone like you and the mayor's, you know, customs team on your side to help you, you know, filter through all of these different complexities. So Janet, thank you so much for your time. Where Can folks connect with you? You know, follow more of your work and get connected.

Unknown: 1:08:20

Well, basically, I'm on LinkedIn. Number one. Number two, I am@janet.la Buda, at L, N, s@maersk.mursk.com um, com. So, you know, they can, they can reach me at Maersk. Everybody knows me just about so that's easy to connect there.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:08:43

Well, awesome. Appreciate your time that this was an amazing discussion, and I'm sure you know, Grace will be the first one to get it downloaded, and we'll both fan girl over it. Okay?

Unknown: 1:08:54

Well, tell grace. I said hi and send my love. And thank you very, very much for the invitation. It was a pleasure being with you and meeting you. And sorry we didn't have a chance to talk last year, but this made up for it, I think, absolutely.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:09:07

And real quick, she did want me to ask about a book. You said that you were working on a book, and she wants to know more about it.

Unknown: 1:09:13

Well, it's interesting. I'm working on my really, my my family dynamic. And I was was telling her a number of stories that I probably shouldn't have told about the family, and I said, I have to get this down in a book. So I did. I have started writing a little bit, but with all these things going on in trade, I haven't had a chance to really sit down and do anything further with it.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:09:37

You're a busy woman. It's one of those things back burner item. And you know, when the global trade stops, you know, maybe, maybe catch a break, but I doubt it's going to stop anytime soon.

Unknown: 1:09:47

Well, you know, it's interesting, because in two weeks, I turned 72 at the age of 72 I never thought I'd be talking about artificial intelligence. I never thought I'd still be working so on and so forth, so and it continues to challenge. It continues to really drive a lot of thinking on my part. So it keeps me a little bit young.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:10:09

I love it. I loved that mindset that you had during that cscmp talk, because people are so hesitant to grab on to these new technologies. And I think from especially from a small business perspective, it's one of the AI has helped change a lot of things for me, where I can work as a team of, you know, five to 10 instead of just one person. And so I encourage other, you know, small business owners to get out there and use these tools too. So I appreciate your willingness to share that methodology as

Unknown: 1:10:37

well, definitely. And I think, you know a lot of people, they, they try to think, Well, maybe it's not good. Maybe AI is, you know, sending us down a road that's, you know, The Road to Perdition, or whatever, the road to hell. But I think, just as with anything else, you know, there's so many positive things about it, and it provides so many insights that you would not have as a company. You don't have all that data, you don't have the analytical capability, you don't have the ability to make a rule, an algorithm to, you know, figure out where the risk is, and as the machine learns more and more and more, by going through all these transactions, it's amazing. And I think if you don't take advantage of this type of technology, you're really going to be behind the eight ball.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:11:27

That's well said, and I think that that's a perfect spot to. Hopefully leave the conversation and encourage folks to go and begin their own journey into a better compliance team and a better compliance department using technology. So Janet, again, I feel like I keep finding new questions to ask you, so I'll say it for the third time, I appreciate your time on this show, and we'll have to have you again in the future to talk more about

Unknown: 1:11:52

great it'd be great. Thanks very much. I appreciate it. Have a wonderful holiday. Take care.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:11:57

You too. Bye. Bye. Welcome into another episode of everything is logistics, a podcast for the thinkers and afraid. I'm your host, Blythe Milligan, we are proudly presented by SPI logistics, and we've got another interview for you from manifest, the future of supply chain and logistics right here in Las Vegas, and we've got a fellow podcaster here returning guests, third time on the show.

Unknown: 1:12:17

I think maybe third time you might be the first

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:12:20

three guests. Okay, I'll take that awesome Kevin Lawton with the new warehouse podcast. He is gracious enough to join us and tell us about all things warehouse, robotics, because this is a topic that is so daunting to me. I don't know if it's daunting to you.

Unknown: 1:12:38

Yes, it's becoming more and more daunting, because there's just so many things going on.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:12:44

So tell us what is first. Let's give people like, insight into you. Like, how did you how did you start the podcast? Like, what got you into podcasting? Specifically, something warehousing.

Unknown: 1:12:55

Yeah, so, so I started in the warehouse, started working in the warehouse, and didn't have any formal education around supply chain or warehousing. And I honestly thought in the back of my head, like, Oh, this isn't long term, right? This isn't long term. And now, you know, 13 years later, I guess it's long term, but I wanted to learn more about the industry. And at the time, there was just not much that I found, like, very engaging or interesting. This was, you know, maybe seven, eight years ago. And, yeah, just there was not like, you know, content creators, like, like us. And so I had done some some blogging in the past, in my past, and it's kind of like, maybe I'll do a blog, but that was very time consuming, I thought. And then I came across, like podcasts, the idea of podcasting, so I'm like, let me do a podcast. So it's just kind of for me to learn. And then I guess it resonated, started to get a little traction. And yeah, and now, you know, we're recording this year, in February, March. Our will be six years since we released the first episode.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:14:06

So awesome, yeah. So now is podcasting your main focus? Yeah.

Unknown: 1:14:10

So podcasting is definitely the main focus. And then I also teach as an adjunct professor in in supply chain. So funny enough, I didn't get a supply chain education, but now I'm giving one. And then I do some consulting, advisory work too, as well.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:14:26

Yeah, that's awesome. And so you're here at manifest, and you have, like, you're one of the few podcasters, like, with your own booth. Like we're, we're very happy. Manifest, you know, gave us this booth. But I want to move up to where you're, what you're doing, what, and tell us what you're doing. You have a booth on the trade show floor.

Unknown: 1:14:41

Yeah, we have a booth, booth 1439 and basically we'll be set up there. I'm not sure when this is airing, but we're we are doing a live stream from the booth tomorrow morning Tuesday. So it'll be streaming live to LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and then we'll be doing some other podcasts at the booth, and also at other people's booths as well, so trying to capture some of those solutions and the demos and things that are going on. And then I think Wednesday afternoon, we're going to have some some fun with some little social media clips, maybe some trivia, something like that, and give out some T shirts. And then, and we'll be in here too for a little bit on Wednesday morning

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:15:23

as well. So, so podcasting don't stop for you.

Unknown: 1:15:26

Yes, yeah, when we come to the conference straight show, it's like back to back to back. Let's jam as much content as we can. So we'll do, probably do about like 20 interviews while we're here.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:15:38

Wow, that's insane. I thought I'm doing six today, and I thought that that was crazy. Yeah, the stamina is nuts. Now for the topic of this episode, because with manifest, they have such a strong focus on robotics, and this was one of the first places that I was able to see that part of the logistics process under one roof. But if I remember correctly, you said in a previous conversation that we had is something like 90% of warehouses don't have any kind of robotics.

Unknown: 1:16:08

Yeah, yeah. I think, I think it's a very interesting thing, because you come to trade show conference, you look online, right? LinkedIn, feed, YouTube, like there's all this video, all this conversation about robotics and automation. But the reality is that, you know, there's still in the warehouse space. I mean, the penetration for actual. Robotics and automation is still still fairly low in in comparison to, like, how many operations are actually are. So there's still a huge, huge opportunity in the market to get into that. But I think one of the challenges is, certainly there's, like, barriers to entry, right? The barriers to entry are, you know, cost is one for sure. But I think there's also maybe, like, a little bit of a knowledge gap too, where people aren't quite certain whether, you know, they're really ready for robots, and you know, they may still be, like picking on paper and things like that. And you know, how do I go from, you know, kind of these old processes systems, into something that seems super futuristic, like a robot, right? So I think there's still a ways to go, but I think that robotics and automation companies are recognizing that, and you're seeing like some solutions now come to the market that are trying to tear down some of those barriers make it a little more accessible, a little more approachable, too, as well. But yeah, I mean, I guess, to answer your question, yeah, there definitely is still a big gap where warehouses that have not gone into automation and robotics

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:17:42

at all. And it's almost shocking, I think, with you to your point of seeing all of these different companies, robotics, companies that have all of these really cool looking solutions. And if I'm a warehouse owner, like it makes me want to go and buy a warehouse just so I can use some of these different robotics for your robot friends. Yeah, it seems like a no brainer, but I imagine it's very cost restrictive. I imagine there's very much like it. What are some, maybe some of the other challenges of adopting robotics inside of your warehouse, is there like, an entry level robot that you can get?

Unknown: 1:18:16

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, I think one of the challenges is, certainly, like you said, there's cost restrictions for some systems, but because of that, I think people just see robot and they're like, oh, expensive, right? Like they see dollar signs, basically. But there are solutions that are not as expensive, I think, as they are perceived to be. And there's different pricing models too as well, like you can rent them through like a RAS model, which is robots as a service, right? So there's options there. But I think some of the other challenges too are that, you know, a lot of operations are just, they just haven't optimized fully, right? And there's a lot of things to be done within the operation before you can say, you know, to get to our next level of efficiency, we need to bring in robots, right? So if your processes are not dialed in, solidified, optimized, when you bring that robot in, it's not going to fix that, right? It's just going to. Had a guest on my podcast one time. It's always stuck in my head from a couple years ago, and he said that if you're automating a bad process, like you're just making that bad process happen faster, you're not making it better, right? So when you fully optimize, like you've looked at WMS, for example, you've looked at, what are you using to pick how do you make your just process flow better? Maybe it's positioning inventory in a certain way to get more efficient and be faster. When you feel like you've kind of exhausted those options, then it's really makes sense to start to look at the robotics and automation and take it to the next level. So I think there's that's part of the gap there is that people have not gone through and done that work yet to be able to to get to that that level, and then when they come to get robotics, I mean, sometimes people will go after it, and then they're disappointed in the results, and part of it is because they haven't done those steps ahead of time. So there's a lot of people I know that are focusing on that, from consulting perspective, services perspective, to do that, but I think that there's a lot of steps to take before you can just buy a robot and just plop it in the warehouse and be like, Okay, get to work.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:20:29

Yeah. So what are some of so say you have your processes pretty much mapped out, and then after you have those processes mapped out, what does that next step look like you? I mean, there's a labor shortage when it comes to warehouse workers, so there's a unique set of challenges there. How do you know what direction to go into next?

Unknown: 1:20:50

Yeah, that's, I think that's one of the other challenges, actually, right? Is like, you walk into a show like this, or show like, like a Promat or a modax, like, everywhere you look, there's going to be some kind of robotics or automation solution, and it's all around you, right? And, and if you're not prepared, you haven't done any real research due diligence, like, you're kind of like, Where do I even start, right? So I think there's a lot of education that needs to be done, also in terms of, like, optimizing those processes and that education, I think can take you much further right. Because if you look at something as simple as, like, moving a pallet. For example, right? There's tons of solutions that can move a pallet, so it's which is the right one for me, right? Like, how do I figure this out? What do I go after? First, you know, it's pretty interesting. In my career, I had a role, and, you know, we had very little automation. We had a little bit of conveyor that was it. And my boss told me, We need to automate unloading containers, right? And kind of like, and as this was maybe three years ago, four years ago, and the idea of automation and unloading containers like very new at that time. And, you know, I tried to explain to him that we're not there, like we have a lot of other things that we need to do, or we need to automate other solutions, and the technology is just not quite there yet. But I think, you know, and you know, to the earlier point from, like, a marketing perspective, right? He He saw a video of something from Boston Dynamics when they were first messing around with that. And that's when he was like, oh, we need to do this, right? And I'm kind of like, it's, it's not really realistic, yeah, it's not really realistic for us. Like, it's kind of out of reach at this time. So I think there is, like, a little maybe mis misconception there, and and it is, you know, make your head spin, like, how many solutions? And when you go and you walk in and you see all these things moving around, you're like, oh, that could be great. That could be great. Wait, what's the difference between this one and this one? And what's the right one for me? So there really needs to be a lot of, like, due diligence, research on on that end to come to the right decision. What does that look like a lot. It looks like listening to the new warehouse podcast. So it looks like No but, I mean, you know, resources like that. I mean, podcasts are a great way to learn about some of these things, looking on YouTube, connecting with people that have done it before. I think is another great way to do that. I mean, like, here, you know, I manifest, if you come in and you're, you know, maybe a mid market three PL, try to connect with somebody from, like, a larger three PL that maybe has done some of those things that you want to do and learn from them to find out, like, you know, how did you go about this? Like before? And I'm sure they'll tell you, like, you know, we did this. Don't do this right? Like, we took the wrong step here. Like, go about it this way. And there's a ton of consultants out there too that focus on this, so working with them is a good way to go about it. And I see a lot of people in the industry now too, that have, that have been on both sides, right? You have people that were in the warehouse were practitioners. They did implement implementations of robotics or other systems themselves, and now they go to work for the end user or solution provider. So when you're engaging with some of these companies, and you're you're starting to do some discovery, I think it's very important to understand, are the people you're interacting with, do they have that experience, right? Like, do they actually feel what you've been going through? Or have they gone through that in the past? Have they really done a project like this before? And you know, not to say that people that haven't are not great, but you know that that knowledge, if you're just starting from kind of the beginning, is really needed to be able to accomplish that.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:24:52

Yeah, it sounds like it's one of those things that it just can become overwhelming so quickly, and if you don't have somebody that has been through that experience before, or if you do have somebody that has been through that experience, and it's an incredibly valuable resource, so with maybe some of the things that you're going to see this upcoming week at manifest, or maybe some things that you've seen, you know, in the past, what are maybe some of the most interesting high level robotics that you've seen that are also practical?

Unknown: 1:25:22

Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. I think here just walking through the floor this morning and yesterday morning a little bit and seeing who's here, there's actually a couple of different solutions that are focused on inventory management, inventory control from a robotics perspective, right? So you have who's here. You have Verity gather, AI Corvus robotics doing drones, right? Drone counting Nokia as well. Here they do drones as well for inventory County, like the phone manufacturer, yeah, Nokia, Ames, I think they're calling it now, yeah. So they have a space here, and they're using drones for that. And then dextry too as well, which has, like, maybe arguably the tallest robot out there, the big LEGO model. Yeah, I want to, yeah, I love it. All my Lego models. My son steals them, so I can't, like, keep them on my bookshelf, but I love them. So, so that's one I think that is somewhat low hanging fruit. Route, in a sense, because they're just capturing data information, right? So there's not, not a huge change that needs to happen there. In some cases, maybe you need to switch around your labeling things like that. And that's one thing, I think, from an inventory perspective, that can make a huge impact on the operation overall. The other one, I think that is, you know, kind of low hanging fruit, in a sense. Is it just simply, like, is there a movement that you do every day on a consistent basis? Right? Do you pick up pallets in this area and move them to this area every single day, right, in a frequent basis? That's an easy thing where, oh, this is happening. It's repeatable, right? We go from this location to this location, so we can automate that, right? So that predictability is a good place to go after that. But I think additionally, actually a good solution for that, that's here as well, is with Big Joe. They have an automated pallet jack used it before. It's really easy to use, and engages palette. You kind of teach it where it needs to go, and then you can reprogram it if you need to reprogram it. But that movement from A to B is an easy way to start, for sure, yeah,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:27:48

and that's when it to your earlier point, when you were talking about documenting your processes. That would be an example of, you know, what a typical, you know, worker, a is doing these things throughout the day. Is that a safe assumption that that's one of the processes that you would map out and then try to figure out how robotics will fit into that particular process?

Unknown: 1:28:06

Yeah, exactly. So you want to map out your your processes, right? And understand, okay, where do we have the same thing happening over and over, right? So, you know, the pallet movement is an example, right? Maybe you have, like, you know, a packing area. You're loading up pallets with packages that are going to go out, and then every day, when that pallet is full, that pallet is going to go to the loading dock, right? So you can easily, you know, use an automated pallet jack or something to come pick up that pallet when it's ready, take it over to the loading dock, right? Because, if you have a human doing that, right, they're essentially just doing travel time, right? If you look at, you know, lean and 5s principles, like that's, it's waste, right? So, so where is that waste happening from a human perspective, and then how do we address that? How do we automate? How do we come up with solutions to do that movement that's consistent on a regular basis? If you're doing something that's like one off movements or things like that, it's going to be really hard to find the ROI of the system.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:29:08

Last year, when I was at this conference, there were these skates that you put on the bar

Unknown: 1:29:14

shift robotics,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:29:16

I think so. Is that something that is realistic for a warehouse to implement? Because it seems like that would be a really easy entry level, even though I was not that graceful on them.

Unknown: 1:29:26

No, no. I thought maybe you would do like twirls and stuff. Yeah. No, the knees, yeah, I feel you there definitely. I think that I haven't heard anything from them lately. I was wondering

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:29:40

if they were a little bit of a smaller boot. So I didn't want, I didn't know if maybe they, you know,

Unknown: 1:29:44

yeah, I think they had an interesting approach, right? Because there's, I mean, there's a couple of different ways to look at automation. It's like, how do something that a human doesn't necessarily want to do, or is just like repetitive or, how do we use something like that solution to to make that human more productive, but also more comfortable, right? So, and that was addressing like, getting them to move faster through through the warehouse. I think that is an interesting concept, but I do think there was, there would be a challenge getting employees like to adapt to them right and use them on a regular basis. So I think that's, I think that's also one of the points on automation robotics, is that there is a huge, huge change management aspect, right? Because there's a, there's a bit of, like a psychological shift in the mind, right? I mean, I remember we were testing in an operation I worked there. We we brought in a robot to move these carts around in our manufacturing area, and it was just, just a test. Didn't really think much of it. We brought the demo unit, and within an hour of that Demo, demo unit, somebody, somebody rolled up to me on the forklift, and they're like, Oh, they're bringing that in to take our jobs, right? And, like, no, no. Like, we're just trying something, you know, it's not to take jobs like, you know, we're trying to move people like, you know, we don't need somebody to just push carts around all day, right? We're trying to make it easier and, and that was something like, I was like, wow, we should have, like, talked about this, that this is going to be an operation. It's going to be around, how do we address this with the employees? And I think that, you know, you need to be clear in the the why, right? Because I think when you start to bring that in the mind, does go to, like. Like, Oh, this thing is gonna take my job, right? But in reality, in most cases, I think, you know, and I've talked to companies that have brought robots in and stuff and and, you know, they're very proud of the fact that, you know, they they haven't let anybody go. They've been able to move them into more meaningful positions, do higher value type of work, saves their back too, yeah, and it makes them more comfortable, right? Like a lot of employees, like, when they start working with them, they're like, they have great feedback, because they're like, Oh, I'm not walking as much, like, I'm not pushing around a heavy cart, like I'm not lifting as much. So there's a lot of benefits there, but you need to navigate that very, very like, cautiously, right? And be, be a little gentle, I guess, you know, and not just like, you know, one day, you know, all these robots are just showing up, and employees are like, what's going on? Like, you know, it's a robot revolution. They're taking over all these things. And, you know, making sure you have that change management process really planned out is is so vital to the success of the solutions as well.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:32:34

I love that you brought that up because I remember talking with six river systems, and I was on one of their webinars, and they mentioned how whenever they onboard a new customer, they make sure that that's part, that that's part of the process. Is a, I guess, addressing the human psychological component of this robot is going to take my job, and how do I work with it, instead of seeing it as an adversary? Now I got time for you know, a couple more questions here. I do want to know what is the most incredible warehouse robotic item that you've ever seen that you're like, wow, like the Amazons of the world, or the Walmarts of the world, that they have that level of robotics, interesting.

Unknown: 1:33:19

So an operation itself, or like a solution itself. What's the difference? Well, the operation, you know, being like a warehouse that has robots in it and stuff, maybe different solutions, or just a solution that I really like

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:33:33

in particular? Well, it may be the solution you really like.

Unknown: 1:33:36

Yeah. So I got a lot of friends, but I will say lately, one that really caught my eye. Recently, there's a company called hummingbird systems, so they're utilizing drones, but what we've seen in the warehouse is that drones have been primarily focused on like inventory counting, data collection, right? So using computer vision, they have cameras on them, right? Yeah, exactly. But humor systems is using drones for picking actually, really interesting. I think, I think, you know, they have potential, definitely, very early on. I think the market is like, a little, maybe, kind of like, it's very different, like, from anything you've seen, right? So, it's a drone. This drone is tethered so, so there's a wire, basically that's going along the top of the picking shelves, and it's connected to the drone. So it's consistent power, right? Which you know some of the autonomous drones, the battery life doesn't last that long, so you have to swap batteries, or has to land the charge. So this has consistent power for picking, and then it has a little arm that extends out. And when your products come in, you put like, a special label on them, and it's a super strong kind of magnet. I forget the scientific term they use, but and it, it latches on and it and it pulls the arm back, and then either drops it in a box or something underneath, or there's another robot underneath that will drop it into which will then take it to the shipping area, wherever it needs to go. And I think that that is a really interesting approach. And I think that, I think that people are going to be, like, skeptical about it, right? Because they seem like maybe it's a little slow, or how is that really going to work, like in scale? But that is, like a very unique approach that has caught my attention, I think, and I think the founders, they have a good track record history, so they're co founders of locust robotics and quiet logistics, so, so they kind of know what they're doing. Yeah, right. So that's the other reason I'm kind of like, yeah, that's not a bad start, yeah. So, yeah. So that's one for sure. And then actually, I was gonna answer the question I caught my eye up here on the Big Board, robust AI. I think is very cool too, which I would say hummingbird is, like, like, very experimental. I would say, right, robust is definitely something that's like, I think, really accessible for people right now, they have something called Carter, which I think is so it's a cart, right? Which is the perfect name for a cart, right? Carter, so it is autonomous. Business and also manually movable, right? So, so it is basically on a robot. It's a pick cart, put items to it, or take items off of it. You can send it autonomously to go where it needs to go, or, very simply, it has a handle. And I haven't played with it in person yet. I'm very excited to play with it here, because I know it's here, you just engage with the handle, and it automatically switches to manual mode, and you just can move it real quick or move forward whatever you want to do. And I think that's a real interesting solution for people that are maybe just looking to get started in automation and kind of easy, easy, accessible, gives them more comfortability working around them, and, you know, real flexible solution, yeah,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:37:16

well, that's, I mean, this is one heck of an episode, because we covered a lot of ground in a very short amount of time, but I feel like we accomplished then you that's why you're a podcaster, because you brought it back to the entry level of how someone can get started.

Unknown: 1:37:30

Yeah, we got to cover the whole audience, right? You have

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:37:34

to, you have to go over the whole ecosystem. So Kevin, this was fantastic. Where can folks follow you? If they're not already following you, you should be following him. Sure the show all that good stuff.

Unknown: 1:37:43

Yeah, so new warehouse, we're on any podcast platform where you find us. We're doing more on YouTube too. So you can follow us on YouTube as well, or just head to the new warehouse. New warehouse.com is our website. Kevin, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Great.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:37:59

Repeat. I got a little intro I did. I kicked it up a notch. So let me. Let me read through my little intro for drone logistics, the reality versus the hype. And it says For buzzing through last mile deliveries to scanning warehouses. This tech isn't sci fi anymore. It's real. It's scaling, and it's getting funded like crazy. So where drones are making the most impact right now is around last mile delivery, warehouse, inventory, infrastructure, monitoring and then some niche use cases in agriculture. We have talked I don't know if you remember a few episodes back where there were drones that were helping tugboats tie different lines to the ships that are coming in. So that was something that I thought was interesting. So that's happening in the niche use case in the maritime sector. So for last mile delivery, a couple little highlights zipline you probably have seen. Have you seen them at all on your Twitter, slash x feed?

Grace Sharkey: 1:38:57

Well, I've been following them for years because I know that they started off in, I believe, Africa, because of the regulations, right?

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:39:05

Well, they started off in Ghana, and they were doing blood deliveries, and so that was, it's interesting to see, like, kind of how some of these companies get started. They start off with, like, disaster logistics, or like medical deliveries. These really, like, time sensitive shipments, but also high value shipments. And I think that's probably the business model for some of these companies, is that they start off in the high impact areas, you know, kind of tweak some things, and then from there, it becomes more investable to these other VCs. So zipline is one of them. What have you seen from them?

Grace Sharkey: 1:39:40

So, yeah, like you said, they did start a more of the medicine, pharmaceutical, maybe side. I think a lot of drone companies jumped in right around the pandemic with FAA, like, I guess regulation roundabouts in order to get enough line in so they could get regulation as well. The one thing I believe, the last time I had really looked in the zip line, they they're doing a lot of work, if I remember correctly, in Texas with Walmart. I believe Jack Dalio one of my favorite guys over at flying magazine, who also writes, of course, for freightwaves as well. He always gets to go on those fun tours and see them in action. And I always get really jealous of him as well. But I do know I think Walmart is has invested, or at least started using zipline as well. And they have their drone has, like, definitely changed too, if I remember correctly, since when it first came out, like it was more of like this, almost like a mini plane looking structure, where now I feel like it's more of like a bus looking situation, and has, like, it's a little bit more square, boxy. So that's been kind of cool,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:40:54

like a copter, where they can pass off vertically, yeah. And then I've noticed too, with with zip lines, they they use the same kind of methodology that, like aircraft carriers will use whenever a plane is coming to land on an aircraft carrier. You have this. It's called the adjusting cable, I believe, and so it's literally a cable that is obviously very strong, and that it catches the plane as it's landing on the carrier. And so they have something similar set up in Texas, or maybe it's Arkansas, I believe, with zipline that they have, but it's in the air. So they have. These two kind of sticks that are pointed in the air with a line with a string that's connecting the two sticks, and it catches the drone as it's landing. So zipline definitely is one of them. They have 600 plus daily medical flights in Ghana, serving 12 million people. I believe they're also doing deliveries in Rwanda. So that's to your point. That's really where they kick things off, Alphabet slash Google, which or is the parent company to Google their alphabets, wing, it's 300,000 global deliveries they've done so far. They're doing 1000 deliveries a day in Australia. Walmart, you said that they invested in zipline. But I believe they also have their own drones as well. It's been kind of a, I think, for Walmart, it's kind of been a trial period, because I know that they were trying to do deliveries via drone in Florida, but then they just stopped doing it. And there's lots of factors at play there. So there's maybe we should get into a little bit of the, I guess, the challenges around it. But first, Shenzhen is another one. That is the food delivery in Shenzhen is in China, is already normalized there. I don't know if you've seen any of those videos. It's kind of incredible. So while I'm talking about it, they have almost these, like kiosks, like vending machines all over Shenzhen. Shenzhen is like the Silicon Valley of China, and so they have all of the driverless taxis in there, by BYD, the driverless cars, but drone delivery for food in particular. Like, if you are watching some of these tourists that go over there, it's like a vending machine that has a landing pad on the top of it, so you can order food from an app. Like the demo I saw, they were ordering from, like a KFC, so they placed their order in the next, like closest, little vending machine, kiosk thing you can either order at the kiosk or use your phone in order to order and pay. The drone gets your food gets delivered in, like, less than 30 minutes. They drop it off in it's almost like their own container system that they develop. So, you know, the container system that got developed for the cargo ships really streamed line a lot of deliveries. And that's what this reminded me of, is this drone that was dropping off a box that was meant for food. And it's specially created, has little handles on the top of it that the drone latches onto. The drone lands onto the vending machine in a specific spot, the food drops down into the vending machine. You put in a keypad code, and you take your you take the box out, and then you take your food out of the box. It's all sealed and properly. So even if it's a drink, you don't have to worry about it spilling, because there's like a special seal on it. You take the box that it arrived in, you pull like one side of the box, and it folds up instantly, and you just drop that box right back into the vending machine. Nearby, they have a landing in a takeoff area, so there's a couple like humans in the mix, where the landing and the drones are kind of taking off from, and they have batteries that are there as well. So they can kind of switch out the batteries. Because the biggest hurdle, or the biggest challenges, which we could probably talk about right now, is weather related and then battery related. So these, these two gentlemen were like monitoring all of the drones, monitoring their power level, and then also switching out the batteries for the drones that were looking a little weak in the charging department. And so it's just this whole like system that they have set up and the drone deliveries, I mean, you can order from all different kinds of restaurants, all within the app, and it all gets delivered, like right next to you, versus, like a zip line, where it's more custom, like it's coming right to your house. And so those were the, I think, some of the more interesting things that I've seen, like out in the wild when it comes to deliveries. Have you seen anything sort of interesting like that?

Grace Sharkey: 1:45:27

That is really cool. I haven't have, I to say, Have I seen any of these physically? No, we, I'd say, here in Michigan, we actually do, just in Ann Arbor yesterday, and they, they have a lot more of the on the road robots, because the town physically has, like, set up its infrastructure. It's, it's kind of annoying as, like, as a driver, because you'll see, like, what looks like a bike lane, and then parking for on the street, and then a regular lane to drive in. And it's so they've, like, created really great lanes for, like, robot those type of deliveries. But I do think it's fascinating. I know that Ohio, I think Kroger is working with a company DEXA drone Express, which is a female founded drone company. So go check them out as well. I think they're a venture 53 portfolio

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:46:26

company. What are they called? DEXA drexa?

Grace Sharkey: 1:46:28

Yep, D, E, X, A. Blythe, they're, they're big customers Kroger, if I remember correctly. So the same thing you can like, because I remember they had sent me, like, if you've ever been to Kroger, I really any grocery store, right? Sometimes you get those, like, coupons after your receipt, right? And there's a receipt from Kroger that you get now that's, like, a free DEXA delivery. So like, you can, you know, just get a free drone delivery if you want. Yeah, there you go. Perfect. So I've seen theirs, and theirs is, like, more of, I believe, what they're calling, like, as a service. So like, their thing is they'll create the drones. It's almost like it could almost like, kind of be like a Waymo experience. So like, they build,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:47:18

like a software or they build hardware.

Grace Sharkey: 1:47:22

I believe they have the hardware too. And then let's say, I say, oh, for a living, I want to maybe more of it's an Amazon experience, right? For a living. Maybe I want to own a fleet of these drones, and I'll make deliveries. Then you can, like, purchase the fleet through them, just like you would Amazon, right? Like you can purchase, like, a fleet of trucks, and then your business is dispatching those trucks and making sure they operate. So they kind of set up the same thing there, but yeah, they're doing the same thing with Kroger. And I just think it's fascinating. I What is also interesting, though, is like, for, like, the zip line thing, like, how they set up those experiences, like you said in China, right? They have kind of that, that booth situation there. What I've noticed, like, from the Walmarts in particular, is like they they almost set up like, a whole, like landing pad next to the store that's like gated off and like, instead, the person will bring the groceries or those items into this like gated off, like zone, and then they take off. So it's also fascinating to kind of think, like, for instance, I think Walmart came out that they're starting to do dark stores, right, these locations that no one physically goes into. You just go there to pick up your groceries. So it's like a warehouse. It's like a warehouse. And I just, I wonder if, like, that's what they're going to do with these, like, dark stores too, is like, maybe use the roof or, like, somewhere on that property, like to do, also the drone deliveries. Because I think, right, when you kind of talk about, like, regulation, I'm always interested in, like, how do you set these up around, you know, busy areas, areas like, with a lot of trees, a lot of cable like, what is that experience like? And so when I did see that they're starting to dark stores. I'm like, is that part of this drone experience too? So I think it's cool though it's starting to work. People are using it. I just I haven't been in an area yet where you can accept

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:49:21

one, Yeah, same. I've been trying, even when I've gone to Austin twice this year, and I tried so hard to get a Waymo to pick me up, but I think they're just limiting it to people who have, like, Austin addresses or Austin home addresses. So I was very, I was very mad that I wasn't able to get into a way, because I really want to experience this kind of technology, and it's just not available in my area yet. And and back to Walmart's like, drone kind of experiments, like, there's a lot of experimenting going on, because the there's the challenges that exist are the battery power, and then also, from a weather perspective, if it's raining, if it's dark, if it's foggy, that can all mess with, like the drone sensors and delivery mechanisms. There's also different ways that, you know, deliveries can be made, like zipline actually uses, like, a tether system to drop your package. I mean, Walmart and Amazon, when they were first starting to test these, they were literally just dropping the package in someone's backyard. So, I mean, you know, God forbid, you know, have something fragile in there. It's not gonna, not going to work in that system, but there's a lot of opportunity here, because Amazon, they, I think, in their own study, when they were piloting this program, said that 85% of their deliveries are five pounds or less. So that is a major drone unlock, because for one of the challenges that exists right now for a lot of drone deliveries is that they can't carry a lot of weight. That is getting improved. So I think there's some drones now that can hold up to 50 pounds. So groceries might not be you know that likely, especially depending on what you're ordering, it's probably going to be a certain weight limit. If that you know that, I guess that software allows you to, kind of like, when you're in Amazon, and you can kind of pick, oh, can I get the same day delivery, or can I match it to, you know, my delivery of the week day? So I would imagine that that kind of capability would be coming sooner or later. But as I'm talking right now, it's pouring. Training in Florida so well.

Grace Sharkey: 1:51:34

And it's funny too to like, kind of think through that problem, because going back into like, the technology side of it, right, like, in order to solve that, you theoretically have to go in and every skew that you are moving decide whether or not that item, right, could be technically shipped, right, whether it's based off weight, how fragile it is, etc, and then building your system so that I'm sure you've seen this, right, if you like, this happened to me at Dick's the other day, right? I was trying to purchase a number of things in store, and at the end of it, it was like, we can't do this in store because this one item is has to be just shipped directly, right? And like, so creating the rules in your system to, like, be able to know, so it is, it is interesting to think, like, Okay, you could even, you could have the drone ready, you could you could pass all the weather situations you get. But there's still, I think, just connectivity issues of what exactly can go on there. And I think that's why they've focused so much on kind of we're just going to stick to medicines, right, like dropping Tylenol off on your on your porch, right? Something that we all know can happen, can fall from the sky and probably be fine, compared to sending, like, of course, like I've seen, I think Starbucks, though, was like, delivering in drones. Weren't they, like, or something? There was like, a coffee company, and I was like, see, that's something I don't want delivered by a drone.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:53:09

And it's interesting you say that because, in the Chinese way, I mean, obviously they're far ahead, because DJI is their big drone manufacturer. They manufacture, I want to say over it's not close to 80% but I know it's over 70% of all the world's drones. So they are like the king, as far as like manufacturing them. But even with, you know, a lot of their deliveries that they're doing with those sort of, like kiosks, vending machine type places, the the drinks that they were getting were sealed, so they had, like, almost like, like a yogurt in, like, that kind of seal on top of the yogurt on top of your drink, so it wouldn't spill it all. And so I imagine that there's going to have to be some coordination for like a Starbucks or for some of these other companies, maybe not hot drinks, but cold drinks, for sure, because I think the packaging was also insulated from like the sun or heat exposure or anything like that, kind of messing up your food. But when you think about how many like DoorDash deliveries, Amazon's 85% of their deliveries are five pounds or less. Like, how much are we wasting with just general traffic on the road emissions from these last mile trucks like that? There's a lot of waste going on that this market could absolutely capitalize on, and I think it's going to be, let's see. I think I had in my notes 61 billion. A drone logistics market could hit 61 billion by 2029 and it says drone delivery cuts CO two emissions by over 90% versus vans, like delivery vans, so there's definitely some opportunity. But to your earlier point about like regulatory issues, in order to even pilot a drone, you have to have what's called, like the FAA 107 rules, which is the US commercial drone use is regulated by weight, altitude and line of sight limits, so the drone can't leave your eyesight under that rule. Now they're currently trying to rework that rule. It's, think it's loosely being called like rule 108, so then, because that's where the fleet management software is going to come into play, which I think is super interesting if you have an entire fleet of drones, because much like trucks, like you have to know where they're at. You have to know their maintenance schedule. You have to know their power life in you know where are they making deliveries, who are they making deliveries to, and so you have to have all of that information as well for your drones, just like you do for your trucks.

Grace Sharkey: 1:55:48

Yeah, that's why I when I think, when I met the the DEXA company like that was more of their focus was what you're talking about, like, almost setting up people. Because I agree with you. I think that market for Drone Experience is big, just like, again we saw with Amazon and kind of these, like small delivery vans, etc. But how do like we deploy that at scale? How do we, you know, find these people who can test and qualify and then run these drone, I guess drone have to

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:56:27

get a license. They also have, um. I was listening to a podcast earlier today that they have these, like, it's like a digital license plate for any drone that is flying in the country, so you can avoid collisions. You have to fly at certain like, there's going to very soon be like, flight paths and flight lanes for drones. And there's also the the factor around, like, trying to be less of a nuisance, because the public, especially when you're talking about in, like, the public atmosphere, they don't want to hear drones flying around. They're still incredibly noisy. There are, you know, the manufacturers are working on, you know, reducing that noise level. But then there's also, like, the privacy level too. Of you know, people see a drone and they automatically think like their privacy is being invaded, and so you have to sort of monitor that perception as well. But there is one place where you don't have to worry about any of this, and that's inside a warehouse, and that's probably like the best use case for drones right now, because there are self flying drones are reducing manual labor by scanning shelves and barcodes inside these massive warehouses. IKEA uses 250 autonomous drones across 73 warehouses and in nine countries, even in the dark. So they're doing like inventory counts in the dark. I had gather AI on the show about a year ago, and they talk about how they have, like, charging pads inside of their office, and then the drones will take off from the charging pad, go do their inventory counts, and then return back to the the charging pad. And it's all internal. They don't have to worry about different licenses. They don't have to worry about, you know, weather patterns and things like that. It's all kind of, you know, just built in. So there's,

Grace Sharkey: 1:58:14

like, how you can maximize space in a warehouse, knowing that you can. I mean, clearly there's probably some fire hazards in this, but you can build shelves as high as you physically can, right? Because you don't have to worry too much. Well, my drones are going to be counting up there. It's not humans I'm sending to the top of these things, right? And and again, you can count at any time of the day. You have to worry about having a third shift to do any of that. I think that's what's really cool about the drones inside, is it just like, makes so much sense, it's such a state. It's almost, it feels a little bit like the opposite of the problem with a drone outside, where it's like, oh, this is actually helping with a lot of safety initiatives inside, human safety initiatives, right? And at the same time, like just being able to pack and pick and find items quickly, I think is, is huge. I mean, I can't think of, you know how often things just get lost in a warehouse, and to be able to say, Listen, send the drone out. He'll sweep this place in minutes, and we'll know exactly where it is, compared to like trying to manually find something like that. I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's warehouses all over the country who are losing product or have sometimes a significant loss just because things get lost in their warehouse. So just to have this, like being that can easily maneuver through, I think it's really cool that, yeah, that team's awesome. I think the last time you talked to him, they just got that warehouse.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 1:59:45

I was wondering too, because I used to work at Costco, and we used to have inventory counts twice a year, all hands on deck. It was not a you, if you worked at that company, you had to be there on inventory night. You were assigned a certain area, and you had to count everything by hand. And so it was just all hands on deck kind of thing, and you have to do it twice a year. So I'm sure that's the case for you know, or was the case for a lot of other companies that aren't utilizing, you know, technology like this. So I'm, I'm curious if the the Costco workers out there, if anybody's listening, chime in and let us know how they're doing inventory counts. Because I would love to know if, because, I mean, Costco is a, pretty much a warehouse, and so when you're inside there, I wonder if, you know, maybe there's something that they could do with, like their own, like inventory counts via drone that are happening at night. So it doesn't have to be like the all hands meeting at the end of the day. So I did want to highlight, you know, some of these, like GPS tracking autonomous systems. So there are a couple of them, like DJI. We talked about them. They have a flight hub, as far as, like a fleet management software offering. There's another company called Air Data, there's another company called aloft. There's other like battery and like health monitoring. So think like maintenance for your drone. It's called Flight base drone deploy, or air data, UAV, so there's a few companies there that are almost like your fleet management software, which I think it's just super cool that we're watching, like some of this stuff, like unfold, and what are they learning from, you know, experiment logistics, experiments across the world, and then how it's kind of different, or the, I guess the application is different. For all different sectors of the world. But kind of, when I was watching the video of like the Chinese drone delivery, because they're so far ahead when it comes to drone manufacturing and just drone deployment, it was interesting to see, like, what is working in their society. And I kind of think that with those kiosks, I don't think we're too far off from, you know, apartment buildings or even your own home, like having a little helipad for drone deliveries, and that is just a marked space for the drones to make the delivery and they drop those packages off. And you know that that's your little landing pad, not just for buildings and not just for kiosks, but for your house as well.

Grace Sharkey: 2:02:10

Yeah, poor gig workers, right? Just No, I think it would be cool. I just, and it's, I think my well, and this is more of a societal issue. My one fear with it is that, and this, again, is more societal is, I think something like this can be really helpful for areas who have food deserts, right? But I also think, at the same time, those areas also probably have issues with drone flying regulation, because they're so compact. Usually inner cities, right? Are a little bit more difficult, I think, to withstand that. So that's, that's my only fear is, like, is this going to be something that you more of, like a suburb thing, where you have that space to kind of take off and maneuver around, compared to, like an inner city, who could probably really use that technology to actually,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:03:06

like fresh produce or something like that, like being able to get that delivered? Yeah, I don't think we're too far off. Hopefully. I mean, it just, it depends on the budget.

Grace Sharkey: 2:03:16

It could be a situation too, where it's like, you're saying you almost maybe, like a block or two, share one, and that can help, but it will be fascinating to see how it starts to explode more. And I think once we have more states, I think accept, accepting of a lot of this technology, we'll see, see more of it too. I think this also the sad side of this, though, is my poor state, who loves to see snow and rain throughout the year, is probably going to have a little bit more difficulty deploying that because of weather purposes, compared to states like yourself and stay a little bit more dry.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:03:52

Well, it's literally funding outside right now we're at the time of the year in Florida where it rains every day. So what are they going to do about a state like this where it's raining from like one to 4pm or has a high chance of rain between those time frames? Yes, maybe more late night deliveries, or more early morning deliveries. That's probably a better, I guess, method to take, but it is. It is interesting also to see how they're approaching the style of drone that they're manufacturing, because I just saw, and I'm blanking on the name right now, but I just saw this drone maker the other day that is starting to mimic birds. And so instead of having like, a vertical takeoff, they kind of with birds, they kind of jump to take off, adding almost like little bird type legs to the drone, so it'll jump, and then it starts taking off, like, give it a little extra oomph so it doesn't need as much battery in order to Take off. Because once it takes off, it's, it's much I how do I say this? It's not as impactful on the battery load of the machinery if it's already in the air, but it's the initial take off that is, is challenging of a situation. And it even, like, this little drone had wings as well, and so it was, like flapping, like, if it wanted to, like, hop over something, then it was, like a little, little bird leg jump and then, but the wings would flap too as it was jumping. So I don't know how practical that is for, like, delivery and especially carrying, you know, payloads like that, but it is something, it's something interesting to

Grace Sharkey: 2:05:31

watch totally. And for all the people out there think birds aren't real, just helped you support that theory.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:05:39

So are there really people who think, no, I don't. Oh god, you know, I'm about tired of conspiracy theories and news and every conspiracy theory I feel like I talk about it comes true anyway. So is it even a conspiracy theory? And, you know, I

Grace Sharkey: 2:05:55

will say, though the whole drones around New Jersey thing, it is funny that you talk about the type of takeoff, because the whole, like, weirdness about some of those, like, lights and stuff was going back to write the science of kind of propulsion, and if we have a capability of being able to kind of take off in a different type of propulsion form, and that's kind of like what you're talking about, right, is like, but that kind of technology. G right? Can be it's, it's interesting to like theorize if, if we do have it as a country, right through the lens of that conspiracy theory, because that would be very helpful for this exact problem solving scenario. So hope maybe the conspiracy people are right, and we can get that type of propulsion off of these drones and make them a little bit easier to to get off the ground and going.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:06:55

I would love to see some of these experiments take place in like, the pouring down rain of what we're experiencing now, like real magic, or just dive into the ocean or something like, give us some goods.

Grace Sharkey: 2:07:07

You do actually make a good point, though, because in a day like when it's raining out, I don't want to go the store. That's the day I most likely want to use a drone. Like, when it's beautiful out, I want to leave my house and, like, go to that. So really do have to figure out this weather situation.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:07:22

Can you hear the thunder?

Grace Sharkey: 2:07:24

Honestly? I thought that was your stomach.

Unknown: 2:07:28

I know she learned. I was like, I did start listening to and I was like, and I know the listeners can hear it, because I can hear it.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:07:40

Yeah, it is. I'm not hungry. I ate right before we started recording. So we're good there. Great Sharky back with us from freight waves the Blythe Milligan here we are proudly presented by SPI logistics, and we're going to talk about building roads and ports in South America. So this was such a fun story for me, personally, to do a lot of research on. I don't know if you could tell in my voice, and I will

Grace Sharkey: 2:08:07

say, I annoy you what you're talking about, but I also was like, Oh, this is very interesting.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:08:13

So I just so, I so I've been endlessly watching YouTube videos for a while, been keeping notes on this specific topic because, I guess, as a backstory, my first trip out of the country was to Peru. Peru is a country that's based in South America. It has one of the world wonders with Machu Picchu. It was a trip that, honestly, just changed my life. I literally think about that country at least five times a week. It's just so I got, you know, proof, no, I don't have the Peru stuff. We got the we got this gentleman right here, I'm blanking on the name, but that got that Peru so great country. Love it. But what I noticed when I was there is the road construction and the they have such they have Andy's mountain range that is located there, and also in other countries as well. But the roads are so insane. There's actually, you know, YouTube documentaries that I'll put a link in the show notes that talks about how dangerous these roads are. There's a road in in Bolivia, which I'll talk about here in a little bit. It's literally called the road of death, just because they're so dangerous to drive on. But the reason that this story came about is that I I always kind of have, like, my eyes open for anything like Peru related stories, but there is a new South American port called in Peru that was just opened, the shanka Mega port that was just opened. And if you don't know the geography of Peru, it's basically on the west coast of South America. And so for a lot of shipments, especially from China, that is a direct trade route for China, and so that's why they have heavily invested in South American infrastructure, and this is one of the biggest ports in the country that just recently opened up. So I guess, to give a little bit of background of why the shanka Mega port matters is because if you think back to our Arctic shipping episode, we talked about, sort of the new Arctic Silk Road that China and Russia, you know, some other countries are trying to explore to develop that trade lane up into the North. Well, there's also other trade lanes that China is also trying to establish, to really diversify their supply chain routes and their trade routes, so they're not going to get stuck on the West Coast port congestion or the Panama Canal, if it has, you know, similar drought levels of what we've seen. You know, it just happening over the last year. So it's, they're part of their Belt and Road Initiative, where the the shanka aligns with China's push for new trade corridors. China is South America's largest trading partner, making up 20 to 34% of trade for individual countries, meaning that something like Chile is like 30% of their trade globally is with China, and so these direct corridors, and setting up those direct corridors are vitally important for China. For who, you know, I know a lot of people don't want to hear it, but they control the overwhelming majority of the world's manufacturing. So if there. Goods, then they need to be able to protect these trade routes. And so it's called, essentially, the great Rerouting. And this comes from a gentleman that teaches over at Texas A and M, John Paul Rodrigue, and hopefully I'm pronouncing that name right, but he just came out with this phrase called the Great rerouting, and it's how China is diversifying all of their trade routes. And it's not just from the Arctic per or, I guess, the Arctic perception, but then also from other different areas of how they can avoid the Strait of Malacca, which the Strait of Malacca is in is a little bit south of India. But the Red Sea route, in order to get through to the Red Sea, to get to the Suez Canal, China has to go through the Strait of Malacca. And that is a very you know, historically, that is very challenging for them, because of all the drama that China has had with Japan, they've had with the Philippines, Vietnam, you know, other countries in that area, India, of course. And so that is a major choke point for them. And so he talks about how John Paul Rodriguez, he at the Texas A and M professor. And then he is also, I think he has his, he's the Department of maritime Business Administration. So stop me if I'm, you know, getting a little too far ahead here. But this particular screen, let's bring up this image, and it shows how China has been rerouting its goods based on everything that's happened over the last handful of years. And so basically, what they're doing is they're rerouting a lot of their shipments to avoid the Red Sea crisis, which is what you see here, the Panama drought, the Suez blockage that happened back in 2020 famously, but all of these different crises that are happening across the globe and how China is trying to deal with, you know, shipping their goods out, and really the rest of the world is trying to deal with shipping their goods out. And so with this port in Shanghai, it offers faster, cheaper routes for especially for Brazilian goods, because Brazilian goods can reach China now two weeks faster than using the Panama Canal. So there's also some strategic benefits as well for the China Peru sort of team up here that it reduces Peru to China logistics cost by 20% and it's also expected to generate 4.5 billion annually and create 8000 jobs in South America. And that comes from G captain, which Sal marcogliano, number one fan. He has such a great channel. It's called what's going on with shipping. He did a video covering this and cited G captain for a lot of these stats. I'll put a link in the show notes in case you want to watch it, because Sal just gives such a great he's such content goals, in my opinion, he just, he gives so much knowledge and perspective on a lot of these different things, but I'll get into some of the key challenges, but especially when it comes to geography and infrastructure gaps. And I got a lot of B roll that I'm ready to tee up. So anything before I start teeing up this B roll, because I'm that was just sort of setting the stage, and now I'm ready to get into the nitty gritty of it.

Grace Sharkey: 2:14:51

I love it. Yes, no, it's, I think let's get into the the nitty gritty, because it's, this is, like, The fascinating part too, especially when we get to the train route, to the railway route. I think that's interesting in particular. I'm glad

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:15:07

you brought that up. Oh, is that where we're going? That is one of the first things

Grace Sharkey: 2:15:11

corridor, is that where we're headed?

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:15:15

I didn't know. I didn't know that part, but yeah, when we talk about, you know, some of the challenges that are going on in South America, it is mainly tied around infrastructure. The roads are very challenging to be built outside of the great Inca Trail, which I'll get into in just a minute. But there's, there's roads, there's the Amazon River, then there's also the rainy seasons, then there's, there's so many it's a continent, so they have all different kinds of weather that are going on different elevations of weather. So the geography of the Andes Mountains is just insane to because I guess I should back up. It's not just the port that's on the west coast of South America. It's essentially trying to connect Peru to Brazil, because Brazil and China are major trading partners with each other. And so what now, what they have to do is Brazil's on the east coast of South America. And so they have to either go around the southern tip of South America, which is very dangerous waters, you can't necessarily, you know, even take a shift through those waters for, you know, six months out of the year. So it's not reliable. And then when you factor in the Panama Canal and a lot of their drought issues that they've faced, you know. In the last couple years they are, they have alleviated that, I believe they're putting in, you know, some redundancies in order to help, you know, fix their their water flow issues in that region. But still, that's enough to probably shake, you know, somebody else shake another country to say, like, hey, we need to develop another solution for this. And so the idea is that they're going to have this mega port on the west coast of South America in Peru, and then they can build some train lines, and then they can also build some roads to go through to connect Peru and Brazil from an infrastructure perspective. But you have a little problem with the Andes Mountains in the way China apparently, has a lot of experience in building these train corridors, especially through mountainous areas. I think they've done it a lot in their own country. And so they're helping Peru, and as part of their Belt and Road Initiative is to help not only, you know, South American countries, but also African countries as well. You know, there's, you know, I could also get into a little bit of, like, there's a little, I don't want to say, shadiness going on, but essentially, what China does is they offer the money to start these projects, and if the country can't pay those bills back, then China is able to seize those infrastructure assets. And so that's, yeah, it's a win win for them. They can get additional trade routes, or they can just take your take your stuff,

Grace Sharkey: 2:17:56

very capitalistic of that.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:18:00

So this is a photo of the rail lines in Argentina. So this is just a very small sample size. And so in 1990 you can see all of these rail lines that existed in the country. And then you fast forward to 2014 which is obviously 10 years ago, but it's drastically decreased. What would you say? Maybe 10% of the existing rail lines that were around in 1990 existed in 2014 the reason, and from, you know, kind of reading and trying to understand what's going on with, you know, why would these rail lines decrease so much in such a short amount of time? And the reason for that is for, you know, Argentina, just itself as a country, has had a lot of issues, changing of governments, changing. Anytime you have a change of government, you have change of priorities. So these industries, especially for transportation, have gone through several phases of being regulated versus being unregulated or deregulated. And so when you have that situation take place, then something that's like the rail lines, which were government controlled. So they regulate them, and then they unregulate them. Well, they fall into ruin, and the the maintenance of them, you can't keep up with them, and that there's no money to keep up with them. Yeah, there's also an issue of new construction costs. Mother Nature is a big barrier. So that in Bolivia, which is the country to the east of Peru, has a lot of very similar geographic concerns. And so let's see the road of death. I'm going to bring up the road. It's road of death time. What like a great also, road of death time.

Grace Sharkey: 2:19:44

Phrase Happy Thanksgiving. It's the road of death time. Oh, or shook them out.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:19:52

I just hold on, the video is not available anymore. No, no sugar. You talk. I'm gonna find it, because this is not gonna get around me. So what

Grace Sharkey: 2:20:04

are the you're not getting through in this one China, we're finding the video.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:20:08

Yeah, we're gonna find the road of death. Free documentary, road of death, and I'm sure it was, ah, here we have found it.

Grace Sharkey: 2:20:18

Nice try. Nice try, trying. Nice try. You tried again. You tried again. But we're going to figure it out.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:20:26

Alright, let's they thought they could hold us back.

Grace Sharkey: 2:20:31

Yeah, no, this is a land of the free content over here China.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:20:37

It's kind of ironic talking about YouTube, and I think they just took down a bunch of other posts recently, but that's that's a story for another time. All right, let me bring up this video. And this comes from free documentary. And they basically, they have a bunch of people that they're following in Bolivia. One of them is a truck driver, and so to sort of set the scene like truck driving, obviously, is a very dangerous job here in the United States, significantly more dangerous in South America because of all the issues that they're dealing with. So all that to say. I've talked enough about this. I'm going to hit play on this video, and it's going to play for a couple minutes because it's really interesting stuff.

Unknown: 2:21:21

There's no there is hardly a single road in Bolivia that he hasn't traveled. Oh, yikes. The road to La Paz is his home route. He trans. Parts timber from the jungle. His load weighs 25 tons, without any incidents. The journey takes him three days. It still is dry season at the end of October, so the road is quite dusty. You in a few weeks, it'll start raining, the road will be drowned in mud and morass, and there is hardly any kind of movement possible. But for now, the drivers are fighting the stifling heat and the dusty air you Omar is driving quite fast. He's using the opportunity to make kilometers. His co driver hardly knows the road. He wants to learn about its pitfalls from Umar. It's like death gripping the side. There are dangers everywhere. You must not make mistakes. The truck could break down. There's a lot to be sorry about when you're on the road, anything can happen. The truck is stuck. The wheels are spinning. It's deep, really deep. Put it in there, in there.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:23:03

So I'm gonna, I'm gonna pause the video just for a second here, because these are the kind of things that they have to deal with on a regular basis, they can only do these routes

Grace Sharkey: 2:23:13

drivers so spoiled American driver, I never

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:23:19

let me tell you. In another video I was watching this morning about Peru's dangerous roads, there's literally an impasse of, you know, when you're going, when you're going around a mountain, especially a curb, you can't see what's coming, you know, around the corner. And so for a lot of the trucks when they're ascending up the mountain, they don't stop. The people that are coming down the mountain are supposed to be the ones that are stopping. And so this one truck that was trying to get around one of these circles, it's not, it's not wide enough for the truck to get across. And so with the it's almost like a U shape. They literally took logs and they they cornered the the circle to kind of like add another, like, part of the road that was just connected so the truck could just get around it. And they said, Oh, this happens all the time. In the video that we're watching right now, they're going through a giant mud pit, yeah, and they have to put rocks underneath the wheels and then shove a bunch of debris in order to get just around this one piece. There's other drivers too, that when they're driving on these mountains, they're not these mountain roads are not paved, and so that, because they're not paved, they kick the tires, kick up a lot of dust, and so then they can't see the damn road. And so it's just all of these different things that they're, that they're being faced with. And it's just, and we're just talking about the regular roads in the mountains, for God's sake, let alone,

Grace Sharkey: 2:24:45

like, bringing the tools to build onto them, right like, and

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:24:51

then there's this, this other really fun part where I think, oh yes. And there's another fun part, because the Amazon River obviously has all these different, you know, sort of this, the main river, and then they have all these sort of offshoots, the inland waterways, which I'll get into in just a second, for South America, is incredible. And, you know, we all know, I think about North American waterways, but with the Amazon in particular, these trucks also, obviously, there's very few bridges in the country, because if they don't necessarily have a lot of roads that are under construction or have been constructed, then they don't necessarily have a lot of the bridge infrastructure either. And so for a lot of these drivers here, I will bring up stop that bridge this point where they have to get on pontoon boats in order to take their truck from one side of the Amazon river to the other pontoon boats. And a lot of these pontoon boats can fit a max of two trucks at a time. So let me play it from here,

Unknown: 2:26:01

we're nabaki lies on the banks of the Rio Beni, on the inflows of the Amazon River. Trucks are waiting to cross the river here, the ferry consists of a simple wooden pontoon. The pontinero instructs the truck drivers. The Crossing takes half an hour, and only two trucks can go on at a time. The.

Grace Sharkey: 2:26:30

Oh, that one's barely on there, too.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:26:35

Can we just stop and appreciate that half of this truck, half of Omar's truck, is hanging off of the back of this pontoon.

Unknown: 2:26:43

Talking about insurance on loads. I hope the guy's insured. He ain't. Ferryman guanyras is responsible for bringing trucks and people to the other side safely. He's been shipping the Rio Beni for many years now. He also knows when operations should come to a halt. This river needs a certain level. You can't always cross. Okay, at a high tide, the current will carry floods, wood and junk and everything that destroys the engines of the boats. As soon as the ferry lands on the bank, juanera RIAs must anchor it tightly. Iron chains will make sure the pontoon doesn't break loose when the trucks Embark. The ramp consists of only two logs. They have to carry the weight of 90 tons. It takes expertise and good judgment to position them properly.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:27:48

I'm going to stop the clip right here, because I love this guy because he goes on it to further explain in the video of anytime something goes wrong, he blames the driver, which I think is like universal across all countries. He's like the drivers that you know, that they let the wheels spin, or they, you know, they don't, you know, get onto the the boards properly. And if you're just listening, basically what we're seeing is a giant pontoon boat that has a bunch of, like, two by is two by fours or two by eight,

Grace Sharkey: 2:28:20

even though term pontoon is like stretching it, or we're talking about a slab on, like, floating

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:28:26

devices, yes, yes. And so then they arrive, up to they cross the river, they get onto like there's no this is this area is not paved. And then there's two giant pieces of wood that the truck driver is then supposed to drive off of the pontoon boat onto these two giant pieces of wood in order to continue their route. And that's just part of the route. And so, you know, going back a little bit to with Omar, the truck driver that we just saw, I said, not only in this video, do they show all of the different types of geography that that he's having to deal with, but they show along the route he stops over to have a break to eat some Lunch, there's somebody in the in the restaurant that says, Oh, I have to get this monkey up to this town. Can you take it with you? So he literally has a monkey to bring it off and drop it off while he's on the lunch break. That's just one. He also does preventative maintenance.

Grace Sharkey: 2:29:26

Picked up an LTL on the way. And

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:29:30

it's like, I hope this is because it was a cute monkey. And I was like, I'm not gonna ask

Grace Sharkey: 2:29:34

about, you know, how I feel about monkeys and

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:29:37

humans, illegal trade, you know, wildlife trade, no, no shade to Omar. But maybe, maybe be a little curious about where these monkeys are going to before you agree. Yeah, the next one is, he does preventative maintenance on a tire that takes about 30 minutes, but it ends up saving him hours in the future, in case a tire mishap happens when he's like, hundreds of miles away from a town that can actually help him. So he does preventative maintenance while on the route. He also choose coca leaves to de stress and to stay awake. I don't know if you've ever heard of coca leaves. Yep, yeah. So I everybody. I'm a huge coffee drinker. Yes, when I went to Peru, I didn't drink any coffee coca leaves all day, every day. Yeah, it was they served them in which for folks who don't know, coca leaves are a derivative, or are one of the base ingredients of cocaine. Obviously, there's a bunch of other shit, including like gasoline and stuff that's also added to the production process, but the coca leaf in general is very medicinal, like it's everywhere in the country. I really wanted to bring some back. I couldn't. Obviously, it's illegal. There's only actually one company in the world that can export coca leaves from Peru, and that's Coca Cola. Fun fact, there's still a derivative of cocaine

Grace Sharkey: 2:31:08

in Coca Cola. Love that. I love it so much.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:31:12

But coca leaves, like when you walk into hotels, the dried coca leaves are literally sitting in a bowl next to hot water and lemon and you just and very similar to, like making a glass of water making a cup of coffee in a hotel lobby, they have coca leaves right there next to it. They also help with, like, elevation sickness. They help. To keep you awake. Omar talks about how he uses it to de stress. So very I love that the coca leaves like, why can't we export these to other countries? I would be a number one buyer of it because

Grace Sharkey: 2:31:46

it was I know a lot of guys who would you know, brokers all over the country. Just like booking the most rate they've ever seen,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:31:56

you're trying to get more revenue, to get more loads, open up an offshoring office in Peru and allow them to forget Colombia, just go straight to Peru. Oh, my God, I love it. Next one that Omar does is he even he passes a wreck that happened on the side of the mountain, and the driver survived, but the truck falls down because he's literally, he's driving on the road of death, and he comes across like a bunch of belongings that are on the side of the road. So he knows something has happened, and because safety is obviously hugely important, and you can only can't drive very fast with a lot of the stuff that you're transporting because of all of the geographical situations that you're dealing with. And so they come up on this guy that his truck has just fallen off of the road. He survived. Thankfully, got all of the stuff out of the road. And it's just a bunch of drivers, just like, looking around and trying to gage, like, what happened and how they can prevent it in the future. Because even though these roads exist, there's still a lot of, like, crumb, literally crumbling of the side of the road where it's not all the way solidified, and as far as, like, the, I guess, the construction of the road itself. So there's pieces of the road that are falling down like a landslide because of it. Then another, you know, I guess really cool thing that happened after he discovered that wreckage, which, as a driver, like when you come up on something like that, I imagine it has to be insanely stressful, a very strong reminder of, you know, keep being safe, of while you're on the road. But then another part that really stood out to me is, right after this in the documentary, they stopped over at like, this gorgeous waterfall on the side of the road, and they're like, oh, great, it's time to take a shower. And so they literally, like, stop over and hang out in this waterfall and de stress, and the Omar talks about how this is the first shower that they've kind of had in like a day and a half. And it's also a great reminder to him that after they just saw this wreckage of a truck driver who thank God he survived, yeah, but it could have been very, very different story. So that kind of scares him as that part of the job. But then, on the flip side, being able to stop off at this gorgeous waterfall and be able to take a shower in a gorgeous waterfall is another like, you know, just a reminder of why he loves his job so much. There was also, you know, really, I guess an interesting parallel for truck drivers in these, you know, Bolivia Peru, Brazil, is that they're seen as celebrities. And Omar in particular, has two wives. And so he, when he travels to other cities, he goes and visits his wife. And, you know, children with this with this one has his other, you know, wife and children with this one. And the woman who kind of knows that the second wife kind of knows about her situation, but she says whenever Omar comes to visit her, that all of the women come up and talk to him, and that he's like a mini celebrity because he's a truck driver and he makes good money relative to, you know, the areas that they're living in. So these other women are all trying to, like, vie, to be that next wife. And the woman was like, I see it all the time, and it makes me very jealous. It makes me very angry. And she knows she's the second one. So Omar is over here just living life. And so really, really interesting documentary. It's the channel is called free documentary, and so if you just look it up on YouTube, you can find it very easily. I'll also link to it in the show notes. But any I feel like I've been talking for a while and I can continue talking. But any thoughts so far,

Grace Sharkey: 2:35:45

I mean, it's I think this is actually, like my favorite part of logistics topics. It's like, you know, I think we're so, I don't want to say sheltered here in the United States, but like our issues with infrastructure here are nothing compared to something like this. And I even think about like, often just areas, whether it's South America or even Africa, right, that are developing like, truly developing like, from the Amazon to like, having a cement road there, right? Like, not only the it's like, it's, it almost feels like what came first, chicken or the egg. Like. In order to even build the infrastructure out there, you have to be able to drive out there and, and how do you drive somewhere that has, like, no past, like GPS, Google Maps, like car that's like, driven around and figured out that location. So it's like, I just, I do find it fascinating these areas where, when we talk about, like, visibility products. Like, imagine visibility into, like, where that truck is, or where the other trucks are, and being able to actually know that there is a truck on the other side of that, that curve, you know, like, that's where those tools could really make, like, a worldwide difference. When I talk to a lot of, maybe the founders of those companies, you know, sometimes that's like, where their brain goes big picture wise, where, like, we're sitting here in the United States, like, I don't care, like, where, where's the palette, you know? But like, just the fact that that tech could just, like, save, quite literally, save drivers lives right on. Like, those mountains, I think is really cool. So I think sometimes when we maybe have these, like, big picture ideas for technology United States, and we can't figure out a way to, like, apply it, I think it's fascinating to kind of, like, put your mindset in a different country where it's like, oh, this could be really advantageous for them. And that's how I think sometimes we see founding groups come out of these countries, right? I think of like people like the founders behind load smart, right? They're from, I believe, Latin America, salvento and their founders, right? I come from

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:38:05

rapido too. Rapido solutions,

Grace Sharkey: 2:38:08

yeah, well, I will say Roberto has been in United States for some time as someone who went to Michigan down the road. But, yes, but still, like, it's, it's, I think it's maybe these problems that we have across the globe, right? How do those influence the technology that also, like, comes out here in the United States? And I think, like, I again, like a United States driver couldn't even, like, we're over here discussing whether or not parking should have a price on it, where, like, these guys are like, Oh, you want showers. Like, here's a here's a fucking shower, you know, like,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:38:45

I would much rather take a waterfall

Grace Sharkey: 2:38:49

here, right? But it just like, it's fascinating to me that, like, those two cultures, like, exist at the same time, and I need drivers to say, I'm not saying that your problems aren't valid, yes please. So like, Calm the fuck down. But like, it's it is just interesting to me to be like, you know, there's always someone worse off, right?

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:39:11

Well, watch. So I missed the intro of this video, and I want to play it now because it shows the actual like road of death, so you can kind of see what these drivers are dealing with. So let me play the intro form this same video.

Unknown: 2:39:33

You it's regarded as one of the most dangerous roads of the world, la cara Terra de la muerte, the road of death. Year after year, many people die here. Some go looking for adventure. Others depend on this road for for all of them, it's a risky ride.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:40:25

The Road The video is called Hot roads, the road to death in the Andes, which is it is. So I guess, to your point, US drivers have to deal with their own set of problems. These are completely different set of problems with these roads. And if you notice, and if you are watching the video version of this, what I think is is so interesting is that a lot of these roads that exist in South America were created by the Incas, which the Incas are ancient human civilization comparable to like the Mayans or the Egyptians. And they developed the Incas developed a road system 24,000 miles long, all within South America. So for a lot of these roads, not necessarily the road that we just saw in that video, but for a lot of the roads in South America, especially on the west, west coast side of the continent, they were all created 1000s of years in the 15th century. So I have. Some little like shorts video that I wanted to play, because I just think it's so it really is like just speaks to exactly what they're trying to deal with. Infrastructure wise. How do you even widen roads that were made in the 15th century? They were made for people walking, not for trucks. And so I think that's also something that we got to keep in mind as well. So let me play this really quick, I guess, a historical perspective on what these roads in South America are, what I guess, what the baseline level is, in order to enhance what is going on from a construction infrastructure investment today

Unknown: 2:42:12

Inca road system, stretching over 24,000 miles connected the vast Inca Empire, which spanned present day Peru Ecuador, Bolivia and Chile, built without the wheel or horses, it allowed for efficient movement of armies, goods and messages across mountainous terrain. Bridges and staircases were constructed using advanced engineering techniques. The road network was crucial for the Empire's cohesion and trade. Parts of it are still used today, a testament to the Incas remarkable engineering skills

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:42:51

the ink. Did you know that most of the Canada, no, I'm not gonna play that video. I was gonna play that next video because they were really good at suggesting, like all the Inca road shorts yesterday, when I was finding out exactly what video to use. But I thought that that was just such a good I guess giving a background of because I think sometimes, especially as Americans, we can see the current infrastructure that exists in another country and think that they are, you know, third world or like, you know, the proper phrase to call them now is the, you know, emerging countries, instead of, you know, third world countries. And so we kind of, I think, try to compare our country to theirs, and just see it as like a lesser but the Incas were one of the most fascinating civilizations that have ever graced this planet, and their innovations and their construction techniques, and even like their stonework is some of the best we have ever seen in the history of human civilization. A lot of their construction methods we can't replicate to this day, very similar to, like the the Roman cement that we can't replicate to this day. And so when you have infrastructure that has stood the test of time for a lot of like Roman roads versus Inka roads, I think the Inka road should be right up there with it, because, with these road systems, they used it as seen, Lord of the Rings. You know, the the beacons of of minister. You know that messaging system of, you know, you light one beacon and the next game gets gone, door calls for aid. You know,

Grace Sharkey: 2:44:27

all of those things. What a job. How do I sign up for that?

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:44:31

Yes, exactly. You just, you know, you got to play a hobbit, and then you have to, you know, go against the rules, and then light the beacon on fire. And then, you know, eternity, yeah, if I could light a beacon to summon Aragorn, I Well, I can't say that now. I'm a married woman, but I would have done it in the past, which I think any woman now is like growing up, is realizing that Aragorn was the hot one, not Legolas.

Grace Sharkey: 2:45:00

Yeah, I don't want to admit that I was a big Orlando Bloom fan, dude. No, I love I go back to my, like, childhood home, and my whole closet I has, like, just photos of him, like lying. Oh, my God. What inseparable in my mind.

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:45:25

Well, yeah, now we have to admit it right. You're as adults, you know you're right. Sam wise was the real hero. Oh, should bring up the photo. I just met him recently. I know, I know that's fine. You would touch you. I'm not going to, don't make me cry. I'm not going to cry back to South America. Okay, so I hinted earlier about the, you know, the the rail line ecosystem. Then we've also talked about, you know, some of the pontoon boats, and for a lot of the geographical challenges we just saw with the road of death, there is another way that we could be or that South Americans can, you know, I guess, enhance their logistics profile in order to help the flow of goods, not just between Peru and Brazil, but throughout The entire country. Most of us have seen that US inland waterways map, but have you ever seen a South American inland waterways map? And so right now, on the screen, we're showing the vast network of navigable rivers and also rail lines that exist within the country right now. And so this actually. Actually comes from Science Direct. And so this image on the screen is showcasing, showcasing, which is side note or sidebar. I can't believe that, like, this level of research actually exists, and I'm thankful for it, because you just, you're looking at this graphic. They're talking about all of the different commodities that are being moved throughout the country. You know, iron ore, which South America is rich in, just natural resources, even like magnesium, petroleum, obviously petroleum, especially for Venezuela and Guyana, cement, wheat, sugar. There's all of these different commodities that are just flooded into the country. Problem is that they can't transport the damn goods. And so this research, you know, went through a lot of the planning of what take, or what it would take in order to develop these different infrastructure projects all across the continent. And if you're, if you're just, I guess listening, I'm sorry, but there's really no way to kind of explain this. Go to the YouTube version of the show and be sure to watch that version, because a lot of these images are just really incredible. And so just, you know, to talk about how, I guess, you plan a waterway system. Distribution within another continent is so like sort of step one is the waterway path proposal. Then they try to find all of the basins. Then they identify the major cities and choke points. Then they talk about the technical challenges. Then they talk about land cover, road versus waterway management, the road versus waterway impact, you know, all of these different variables. I'm not going to go through all of them, because that would be super boring. But, you know, topographical data, so it's all of these different things. Of there are people in this world who are trying to plan, you know, just these massive infrastructure projects. And I think that that is another really interesting point about just South American logistics, is that there are people actively trying to plan these things out. And so in the next image, they also talk about some of the other rivers, not just the Amazon River, but other rivers that could be navigable as well, where they're planning and proposing to put different stop points. There was one gentleman in that video that was talking about how his family grew coca leaves. They grew pineapples and also Yuccas, or yucca plants, and they would use a mule to take the mule into town in order to sell the yuca. But Yucca costs, like 50 cents per product. But it was costing them 50 cents just the take the damn things there, and so they just stopped taking them there. But then there was a transportation road that was put in place between that town and their town. And so you see all these little dots on the map. And so once his dot got connected to another.it reduced the transportation cost significantly for them. And so this family is now able to sell the goods that they have on their own property, and be able to go into town, and it's worth it for them, and they get a little bit of extra money in order to do that, and we're talking like, you know, an extra couple 100 bucks a month, but that couple 100 bucks relative to where they're living, goes so much further than say it would, you know, in in The US, and so there's a lot of just this really cool research that's being done. You know, I'm just kind of scrolling through all the slides here, and I'll link it in the show notes, in case you want to check it out more. But there's just so much stuff that goes into, you know, not just recognizing, hey, we have a road of death. How can we take it less death and more life and more, you know, supplying those, I guess, roads of like life savers, not theoretically, but, you know, for a lot of these, like farmers who, you know, have now a pathway to make money, and it's just, it's part of a, probably a, you know, a project, or projects that are going to take dozens, maybe hundreds of years to fully flesh out all of these infrastructure issues. But there is. There's a lot of stuff going on in South America and but a lot of it is starting at very much the ground level and connecting these small towns that you know are small villages that you know, you don't even have an address. And I remember asking, you know, one of the people that we were on tour with, because we were drive through these towns, and I'm like, you know, is delivery even possible out here? Like, do you have addresses? Like, you know, just simple things like that that we take for granted. And he said, No, we don't have addresses, but we do have GPS locations, and so they just enter in the GPS coordinates of where they want the packages to be delivered. And it's just such a different perspective. And I think a lot of things we take for granted, but then also a lot of things, it's like, dang, I kind of wish it was, kind of wish I could stop off on the side of the road and have a water. Fall shower and, yeah, be able to pay from civilization that you need GPS coordinates to find me 100%

Grace Sharkey: 2:51:39

and it's, I'm at, like, I can't even imagine memorizing my GPS coordinates, you know, like, but it is, I think what's interesting about it is, I don't know if you're going to get into it at all. But did you? Did you read anything about the the central by oceanic railway that they're building at all? No, tell us about it. So let me see if I can find a picture I can send to you. So I will say this has been in talk since about 2013 so there's kind of like this back and forth. If this would like ever happen, I'll, I'll throw it in the chat for you,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:52:18

because that's, I think while, while you're bringing that up, there's we kind of hinted at it earlier, talking about the Argentina railways that have been essentially just left, yeah, and so that exists, not just in Argentina, but for a lot of countries throughout the continent, is that they've had these rail lines. They had massive investments, you know, in the really when rail was at its peak, especially in the United States, that you know that this, these problems have been recognized for a while, but for a lot of these rail lines, they've just fallen into disarray because no one has maintained them, and because no one has maintained them or not, no one, but very few of them have been maintained. And so it makes projects, I'm assuming, about what you're about to talk about, you know, challenging to take on, unless you just, unless you're just not worried about revamping the current infrastructure and just you want to start new.

Grace Sharkey: 2:53:12

Yeah, and as as you'll see here, this so this is something, if I remember correctly, I'm trying to see if I still have it up. This is something that has been just on and off talks for a while now, but I think, again, it's one of those things where, if they could make a reality, China could have a whole different kind of play here on this side of the world in particular. But basically they've been talking for years about doing and China would essentially pay for it, going back to kind of the statement you would say of building this railroad across so that when they come in through that port, they can easily transport it across. Again, this is, like, all part of a plan to avoid the Pana canal in particular. And I think it's interesting again, it's like it sounds like, really, what the issue is is, who's paying for it, who owns it, and they've recently just started doing, like, the environmental studies on it too. Because, I mean, you're talking about earlier big part of this is probably throwing some pretty big dynamite into some pretty big mountains. I mean, look at just how small the Panama Canal is, and the work that went into that, honestly, the lives that went into that as well. I know things have updated, so I don't think we're talking about human lives like we're talking that big of an issue. But again, it is a Chinese project, so who knows, but you know, it's, it is interesting to just like, see how something like this, right? And again, like everything is logistics. Like to point back to your brand, Blythe, like the talks that we're having terrifies right now, like how things would change if there was a different way for China to reroute itself and to avoid some of the areas that the United States has a huge grasp on, right and to be able to ship around, not to have to use the Panama Canal, and to be able to not only what would be interesting About this too, is like you were talking about earlier, is China would own this, so if we wanted to use it as well, or certain countries, right? Like, what? How? How does that reflect onto China's overall power and strength when it comes to global trade? And I think again, like, if this will be built is, is still up in question, up until today. I think, clearly, my thing is, is, I think it would do wonders, probably for the economies along the line, right, like, depending on how much China fucks them, right? I guess on the deal, that's a big part of this. But I it it goes back to, like the Arctic discussion, where, you know, today we can discuss Chinese politics and just global trade in one nature, but something like this being built, or, you know, the Arctic being used at the to to the extent that People have discussed it. Like, how does that change politics globally? How does that change what the United States is producing? How does that change what we even can get our hands on as consumers? And I just find it fascinating. Like, I was diving into this project for a while too. And like, what's the biggest thing it sounds like, of course, is just. Um, right now it sounds like they're doing a lot of environmental studies still on it, trying to make sure that's fine, because there is, I mean, it would do some damage. Look how big this thing is. But again, it kind of just, I think United States, in these discussions, lives in a world of like this stuff not ever happening. And what happens in a world where this stuff does start to really grow and actually come to fruition. So yeah, like you said when you discussed or you put in an email for something to talk about today. So I was like, diving into just this aspect alone, and it's, I mean, it's, it's fascinating to think, just like, how this, I mean, we're not done evolving in terms of, like global trade, and I think people are going to find different ways around it. I mean, another big thing too. It's like, you know, sustainability initiatives, like, how, how do we view those in regards to things like this, right? And if we do start to throw aside sustainability issues, or, like, our just the ethics behind it, right? And, like, what does that leave open to in other countries? Like, if we're not going to, if we're not going to hold ourselves to a certain standard sustainability wise? Like, why even does do these countries have to do environmental studies, right? Like, and so it's, and if they don't have to, I can guarantee this thing will be built much faster than it is being looked at now. And so, yeah, I will

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 2:58:01

say when we were, because we did so much driving around in Peru. And so when you're what's what, I guess, spawned the the question of like, well, how do these people even get like stuff delivered? Is that even possible? Is that something that they even want? And so these towns are so small, these indigenous communities, and a lot of them are not being consulted when these big projects are, you know, taking place, or they're being bribed with a bunch of money in order to give up their land, not realizing they're giving it up for pennies on the dollar, when they could be earning significantly more, and they're just being short changed and being sort of like robbed of their natural resources. And so there was another on that same road trip, because I will say that we drove by another town, and I'm so mad at myself to this day that I did not get a photo of it, because it was the cutest thing I've ever seen. But it was a class of kids, and it was a very small town. I'm talking like 10 buildings in this small town. And it could be homes, it could be schools, but it was very clearly like these school children were on the side of the road holding up posters that we're talking about, like, save the planet and Save Our Towns and things like. So it's they care. And it was really inspiring to see that on on the drive. Because for a country like this, tourism is especially for Peru, as is becoming a very serious industry for them, a very good money maker. Think they were also just voted like the top culinary spot in the entire world. Like some of the food that they grow is because they have such high elevations that it's such a unique growing climate like it the best fruit, the best juice I've ever had in my life, the best ceviche I've ever had in my life. A lot of the best meals I've ever had in my life came from this country. And so as you as like these big, mega projects are being considered, yes, it's definitely good from a trade relationship, you know, geopolitical standpoint, typically, when you have trade with a country, you don't go to war with them. And so that is all good and well, but I hope that these indigenous communities are and they probably aren't, but I would hope that there's somebody fighting for them to have a voice and a say in all of this, and so that they you know, if they are interested in making a little bit of extra money, that they're not short changed, or that their land isn't seized, and, you know, they have an opportunity to cash in on this, as I'm sure that the Chinese are going to be able to cash in on this, and they don't even live in the damn country. And so, you know, it's very interesting to see a map like this of a giant rail line, and then see an image like this of where all of the other existing rail lines and waterways that really revolutionized trade throughout this entire country, but yet they are still dealing with roads like this. Yeah, exactly. And so it's just it's an incredible set of circumstances that I think is unique to the country of what they're what they're dealing with. You mentioned earlier about how you know what the US is doing. And I had asked, you know is doing a lot of research. I took all my notes and I loaded it into chat GBT, and I said, What am I missing from this? Is there any gaps of my notes that you think would. Would be interesting to add. And one of the things that chat GPT recommended to add was what the US, how the US is reacting. And so a couple different points is that they're reacting to this because they kind of feel like asleep at the wheel, almost like I don't but outside of Guyana, who just had a major oil discovery, whose neighbors to Venezuela, which is obviously an enemy of the US, our current enemy, and feels like it changes every 10 years, but that is a country that they are helping to invest in. But outside of that, I don't know of anything else that's going on, but chatgpt said that number one trade policies. That's how they're reacting to a lot of this investment that China has made with their Belt and Road Initiative, where they're putting tariffs on Chinese goods. I think they mentioned Peru specifically when it comes to those shipments, because the way that Sal explained it in his you know what's going on with shipping channel is that China can take these massive boats that can't fit through the Panama Canal. They can take these massive ships, send it over to the Megaport in Peru, and then transload it to everywhere else throughout the country, and then also transload those shipments directly into Central America. And then that's obviously a pathway right into the United States. So I believe that they have been threatened with tariffs as well. And then there's also competing investments. So there's the program like the America's partnership for economic prosperity, and that aims to counter China, but it's lacking in comparable funding. So China's throwing a bunch of money at this us is trying to, you know, form more trade deals, trade policies through those deals or through tariffs one way. They're one way or another. They're, you know, they're, they're going to try to address this, but I feel like they're kind of addressing this way too late, and it creates a set of challenging problems that these countries know that they're dealing with. But now, who do they trust to help them through it? It's not the US. They're just in China. And so I think it's just a very, very fascinating of how all of this is taking shape and how it's all unfolding. And I from the very tops of like the geopolitical strategy of developing new trade lanes and trade routes, it still comes down to the nitty gritty of, can you get a chip on a pontoon boat to go across the Amazon River? Can you survive the road of death? Yeah, like, it still boils down to, like, these very simple things. And if you can't get over there, can you get a mule to take you and your family to go sell some goods? And so it's just all of these different things that that folks are dealing with in South America and

Grace Sharkey: 3:04:11

trying to, like, build, again, like chicken egg situation, like building that railroad with that infrastructure supporting it, right? It's like, God, how long would this take to even finish, right? So it's, it's interesting. And again, though, like one to consider when you, when you look at tariffs today and and just the political power across the world, right?

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 3:04:35

Yeah, it feels like the United States is doing more like short term things, and China is thinking long term. Oh yeah, real long. And that side, I think that's probably a good place to anything else you want to mention. You know, the think we covered a lot,

Grace Sharkey: 3:04:50

yeah? No, no, I think it's interesting. Yeah,

Blythe Brumleve Milligan: 3:04:55

thanks for tuning in to another episode of everything is logistics, where we talk all things supply chain for the thinkers in freight, if you like this episode, there's plenty more where that came from. Be sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast app so you never miss a conversation. The show is also available in video format over on YouTube, just by searching everything as logistics. And if you're working in freight logistics or supply chain marketing, check out my company, digital dispatch. We help you build smarter websites and marketing systems that actually drive results, not just vanity metrics. Additionally, if you're trying to find the right freight tech tools are partners without getting buried in buzzwords. Head on over to cargorex.io where we're building the largest database of logistic services and solutions. All the links you need are in the show notes. I'll catch you in the next Episode, in go jags. You you you.