Building a Book of Business in a Down Market

Business types will be the first ones to tell you that there are always opportunities in a down market. This is why I'm pumped to share this conversation with SPI Freight Agent, Michael Gray.

After spending years on the carrier and technology side of things, Michael made the jump to becoming a freight agent and earning business in a down market. If you're looking for positive inspiration in this current freight market, Michael is a good one to get that advice from.

LINKS:

• Michael's LinkedIn
• SPI Freight Agent Guide

WATCH THE FULL EPISODE HERE

---------------------------------------------

THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS!


Are you experienced in freight sales or already an independent freight agent? Listen to our Freight Agent Trenches interview series powered by SPI Logistics to hear directly from the company's agents on how they took the leap and found a home with SPI freight agent program.


Tai TMS is designed to streamline your brokerage operations and propel growth for both FTL and LTL shipment cycles. Book a demo with the Tai team today and tell them Everything is Logistics sent you.

Trimble is transforming the way the world works through industry leading solutions that reduce cost and maximize productivity. Learn more about Trimble Technology here.


Digital Dispatch maximizes your #1 sales tool with a website that establishes trust and builds rock-solid relationships with your leads and customers. Check out our website services here.

Chapters

• 0:05 Building a Book of Business
• 10:25 Evolution of Freight Sales
• 14:56 Unforeseen Challenges in Startup Success
• 25:56 Entrepreneurial Spirit in Freight Sales
• 31:18 Effective Sales Techniques in Freight
• 37:01 Research and Approach in Freight Sales
• 46:48 Future of Automated Freight Brokerage
• 51:20 Automation vs. Human Interaction in Freight
• 56:10 Navigating Freight Broker Fraud and Success
• 1:08:51 Embracing Unique Challenges in Sales
• 1:15:09 Mastering Sales Techniques in Freight

Transcript

Blythe Brumleve: 0:05

Welcome into another episode of Everything is Logistics, a podcast for the thinkers in freight. We are proudly presented by SPI Logistics and I am your host, Blythe Brumleve, and today we have Michael Gray. He is the agency owner, a agency owner over at SPI. We're going to be talking about building a book of business in a down market, which I'm sure is incredibly relatable to plenty of folks out there. Seems like we were just speaking before I hit record that everybody is kind of just down on the market. I think there's some peaks of some hope that a second half turnaround for 2024 will take place. But you said in our pre-show doc that I've added nine new customers in the last six months and more than doubled my revenue. So how the heck are you doing?

Michael Gray: 0:54

First, welcome to the show, by the way. Yeah, thanks, no thanks, and I appreciate you having me here. Yeah, so I have I'm actually up to 12 new customers for the year and I'll say there's a caveat with that that not all customers are created equal, right. So I do, I try to work with with customers that fit kind of what I want to do. So you know, there's kind of a weeding out process there.

Michael Gray: 1:21

So I would say there's four just just off the top of my head since the beginning of the year, probably four customers that I've identified as like these are the guys I want to work with. They're great shippers, I'm able to build a relationship, build rapport with them, and I kind of have like my ideal shipper profile that I want to go for and it's different for everybody, and so I have that and I I choose. I've I feel like I've been in freight long enough where I can. I know that you know, not all shipper relationships are the same and they're shippers that aren't great and they're shippers you just, you just don't really want to work with, right, and I choose to just kind of kind of exit stage left on those relationships and put more focus on the ones that are going to matter over the long term. So yeah, I've been able to add some new customers, and I don't know where you want me to start elaborating on that.

Blythe Brumleve: 2:24

Yeah well, the ideal shipper profile, which it sounds a lot like you know, like a I run a web agency and very similar to a marketing agency, where you kind of have to learn the hard way of which customers you really want to work with and which ones you don't, and which ones are just easy peasy. And then the ones that are, you know, kind of challenging but still worth it, and then the ones that you just can't wait to fire.

Michael Gray: 2:52

So it sounds like it's very similar in the freight agent world as well. Yeah, that's very true. And so one thing like, my ideal type of shipper is kind of like a small to medium business. They're growing to where they're at the point where they you know, maybe it was like the CEO or you know they had some people that were doing the freight but that wasn't their core job, right. And now they're like, hey, we need to, we need to figure this out, right. And they're at a point where, hey, we're going to, we're going to hire, like a trans logistics coordinator or something like that, and maybe they're not quite there yet. They don't have enough freight to justify that kind of budget. And you know, that's that's a lot of the shippers that I have. I'm like the only guy that they use, right.

Michael Gray: 3:36

So you know, an unideal, less ideal candidate, you know, shipper for me is somebody who has, like they're using a TMS, they're blasting out a bunch of you know bids to people and using just churning through. You know, and I'm not against people using software, I don't want to, I don't want you to think that, but you know, churning through a lot of brokers having a big broker pool, a big carrier pool, and hey, you get this spot notification and you're bidding against 20 people for one load, or maybe it's 10 loads or something like that. It's super hard to get in there and actually make a difference with those type of customers and I feel like that's a really good fit and there is a place for those type of shippers and that's like for a bigger brokerage, right, as the agent model doesn't really work in my opinion. But I'm not. You know, as soon as I say that it's, I'm going to go find a customer that does that and they're going to be my favorite one. So that's the way life works.

Michael Gray: 4:42

But yeah, so it's kind of, you know, being able to build those relationships and then build that rapport with them, build trust, and then just get to a point where you where, where I just kind of act as their logistics guy, right, and I have people texting me from different divisions of the company or emailing me or calling me and said, hey, we need this. The company or emailing me or calling me and said, hey, we need this, and um, and they're not. Even I like rarely, get asked for a price on it too. Um, so you know, just, I have that kind of a level of trust with that and if I see where I can build that type of trust with that shipper, then then I move forward and that's, um, you know, kind of my ideal uh client. So you know kind of my ideal client so so how long have you been a freight agent?

Michael Gray: 5:27

So I've been with SPI for four years five years, four or five years something like that and I've had it as kind of like a back burner type of thing. I've done some other things as I've had my agency and I've had other people run it for me and I was pretty much not involved with it at all. The day-to-day operations had some shippers that I've met over the course of the year, where or years, you know, like one of our big accounts, it's all. They just email us the load list every week. We have set rates. We have the same drivers. I have the same drivers that have done these loads. You know that's all they do is work for my agency and that's all they've done for years and it's the same.

Michael Gray: 6:15

I think there's that one customer. We have like 10 different drivers and we pretty much keep them mostly busy most of the time and so everything there wasn't. You know we would almost never post a load, like maybe if we got into like a really big pinch we would, but that'd be like once or twice a year we'd post a load and so I was able to really scale that, have someone else run it and pretty much essentially act like a dispatcher and dispatch those loads and I had that as a you know kind of like a side business, and then, um, I decided to go all in, uh this year, and so I uh, I can get into that a little bit if, if you'd like, or uh, yeah, I would love to hear that story first, though I did want to cover it so.

Blythe Brumleve: 7:03

so you said four or five years. So you really did. You start the business during like COVID or pre-COVID or how did that I? Guess, how did you come to the conclusion that you wanted to start up an agency?

Michael Gray: 7:15

So I'll go back a little bit more than that kind of start. So I started my career in freight working for my dad. We had a small trucking company. I had like five trucks, something like that. That was in the early 2000s, it was probably the year 2000. And I did that for about 15 years. We grew that up to we had 25 company trucks, 10 owner per operators, heavy haul specialized. We did all kinds of like crazy huge oversize. It's so fun and I love it and just like we did one load there's like 180 feet long We've done like 22 feet tall, 20 foot wide. Like you know where they're dropping power lines and all this stuff and closing roads and so that kind of stuff. Like it's really cool, I love that and hopefully I can get back into that doing that someday.

Michael Gray: 8:04

It hasn't really panned out on the brokerage world. I had to step away from the family business for a lot of reasons that I won't get into, but I had to step away. And then I met Dan Lewis at that right around that same time, dan Lewis, the CEO of Convoy, and you know part of what I was doing with the company business was within Salesforce. I was building. So I'm trying to build some like automated tools to dispatch, and this was like 2013, something like that. And so, a friend of a friend, we kind of introduced each other and you know I was using Salesforce is great, it's like a platform that you can build. You can really customize the heck out of it. That you can build, you can really customize the heck out of it. And I wanted something that I could take, you know, from cradle to grave on one load, have all the information in one place, all the permitting, all this stuff and all the way to the end, to where the driver gets the dispatch via a text right and and saves that information. So, anyways, that's something I was working on because I knew I was stepping away from the business with my parents and I wanted to get some software set up to where the business would continue on and they would have all that kind of tribal knowledge that was in my head.

Michael Gray: 9:19

And so, anyways, yeah, I met Dan and I think my interest in in doing what I was doing and and Dan was thinking you know this was still convoy, was still an idea, uh, hadn't even started yet and met Dan and it just the timing worked out and I just told Dan. I said, dan, why don't you get? Because he was talking about bringing me on as, like, an advisor or something like that. I'm like Dan, why don't you just, why don't you just offer me a job? And he did so. I ended up being the 12th employee there at Convoy, the founding account executive, and and this does all lead into the question of, like, how I started an agency so I it was. It was awesome experience. I could spend a half an hour on my experience with convoy. Learned a ton, really changed me, changed how I think. Um, and I I got to.

Blythe Brumleve: 10:10

I would love to explore or pull on that thread a little bit. What, what, what do you think has been the most impactful thing that you learned at your time at convoy?

Michael Gray: 10:21

That's a. There's so much. I think it taught me how to think differently. The the status quo is you know, this is 2013, 2014. And we were talking about dispatching drivers via an app like Uber and nobody. There's a couple of companies that were kind of doing it, but nobody's really successful at it. You know I'm not going to say that convoy was the first, cause there's like three guys doing it all at the same time. I think convoy was able to take it the furthest, but you know I had.

Michael Gray: 10:51

I was an industry vet running a trucking company and like I'm like you're not going to get a driver to use an app on the phone, right, you know this is 2013, 2014. Look at us now. Everything is on an app, with drivers Getting a macro point, project 44, all the tracking, truck stop DAT it's all on an app. And just not accepting the status quo as the way that things work in an industry and I think, working with people who had no experience in the industry but had a lot of experience in building a massive like a marketplace, right, and they were like why? Why wouldn't a driver use an app? I'm like, well, cause they're truck drive, you know, like things like that, and they would just do that. I think they'll use an app let's, we should try it and I'm like, okay, it's stupid, it's a stupid idea, nobody's going to do it. But you know, like really, uh, they, it was like they were so the way they thought was so foreign to the, to the norm in trucking. And then over time we had all these different initiatives and things that we did and I learned that, hey, you know what they're kind of right in a lot of things. This will work right. Drivers will do this. I think Convoy was probably one of the first like book it now type of app. You know where you could go on and book it or send a bid and you know nobody would have thought that would have worked and it and it did work Right. And now even on DAP and truck stop, you see that bucket now feature and that was a pretty big initiative there at convoy. So, like, get answers.

Michael Gray: 12:43

To circle back to your question, like learning, um, you know it changed, uh, the way I think, and I think it also changed how I approach things where I don't. So let me let me. One of Convoy's core values was, um, fall in love with problems, not solutions, and I think, as sellers especially, we fall in love with our solution, right, but we need to fall in love with the problem, right. What is the actual problem?

Michael Gray: 13:18

And you know, finding out and tying this back into talking with shippers and my, you know kind of my success in selling lately is that's how I approach talking to shippers. I'm not here like hey, I'm an agent and I'm going to be the best thing in the world and I deliver everything but babies. And you know, like here's, I'll do whatever you want, right, and I'm your solution, right. I don't. I feel like a lot of times in sales, we, we, we go into that with that mentality, whereas if we took it like, hey, you know, like you have to build, build rapport a little bit, and then let me let me, you know, asking questions to draw out from the customer how they think about their freight and their freight problems, and then that helps to, you know, to sell.

Blythe Brumleve: 14:07

Are you in freight sales with a book of business looking for a new home? Or perhaps you're a freight agent in need of a better partnership? These are the kinds of conversations we're exploring in our podcast interview series called the Freight Agent Trenches, sponsored by SPI Logistics. Now I can tell you all day that SPI is one of the most successful logistics firms in North America, who helps their agents with back office operations such as admin, finance, it and sales. But I would much rather you hear it directly from SPI's freight agents themselves. And what better way to do that than by listening to the experienced freight agents tell their stories behind the how and the why they joined SPI? Hit the freight agent link in our show notes to listen to these conversations or, if you're ready to make the jump, visit spi3plcom.

Michael Gray: 14:56

So sorry, I feel like I keep going down a little rabbit holes.

Blythe Brumleve: 14:59

No, I would love to be able to ask a couple of follow-up questions because, especially during those early days, you mentioned that there weren't many apps around and that you thought that it was a challenge to sell the idea of downloading an app to drivers. What did that process actually look like? Were they apprehensive? Were they a little excited? I imagine it's probably a mixed bag.

Michael Gray: 15:23

Yeah, I remember the early, early days of convoy. This is like pre series a right Uh, and it might've even been before convoy was announced that we were convoy because we, we were running as a gray point logistics for a while kind of undercover or whatever, like we would uh, uh, so we were not in the app store, right, but we did have an app. So, uh, you know, we would literally get a guy to go do a load and then we would drive a phone out to that driver and give him a phone with the app to use it. And like I remember, uh, grant goudale, uh, like when he was a co-founder, he's like we don't even know where all these phones are at, we're just going to have to write it off, you know, and it was funny because at that point in time I was like, hey, can I have a phone, like with a phone number? And I still have that same phone number from Grant that day because I'd lost my phone with leaving my parents a little phone number or whatever, leaving my parents' company.

Michael Gray: 16:26

But yeah, so there was a lot of unique challenges there and you know, and then early on, and then on the shipper side, like it was really tough. Like nobody really cared Like kind of like really, I'd say really early on pre-series A it was really tough, like nobody really cared, like kind of like really, I'd say really early on pre series a it was tough Like we were basically selling. I was using some of my relationships that I had just to go get freight and it was just like you know, the goal was like we need freight to test the system, we don't care what it is and we're okay losing money, and so, you know, just just going out and just blasting it out. And then, post-series A, it was a different game because we had a ton of inbound interest.

Blythe Brumleve: 17:15

So I imagine it was probably you know, last year or so. It's been a little challenging to see some of the news that came out about Convoy, but then it seems like they have like a happy ending now with the Flexport team, so hopefully it's a little bit of a happier ending.

Michael Gray: 17:34

I don't know if it's a happy ending for the stockholders, because it doesn't mean anything to us. I should say this I could care less if they work for Flexport or whatever. You know, like it's, it's too bad, it's, it's, it's such a shame. Like it came so out of left field. And you know, I'll give you my my, my thoughts on that is, you know, I think that, uh, you know, convoy, they were so big and they were seeing so much success in their other rounds of fundraising that no one thought they wouldn't be, especially them. They didn't. The idea that they wouldn't be able to raise another round didn't really occur to them. And then, towards the end, they're like oh crap, it looks like we're not going to be able to raise another round. And that's essentially what happened is, they were unable to raise.

Michael Gray: 18:26

I think everybody's like, hey, we gave you 1.1 billion. Like, uh, maybe you should have figured it out by now or at least be a little further along in your, your, your path. Um, to, you know, getting this towards an IPO. And I think, uh, they're just like, eh, we're just not going to give you any more money. So, and no money, everything, everything was gone. So, uh, really, really sucked. Uh, I think Dan did fight for the uh, the employees there towards the end but at the end of the day like there's really nothing he can do and they just had like shut down like that and everything happened so fast so I had already left, I had been long gone from convoy since then. But yeah, I definitely seeing all that stock go by by and be meaningless, it was a beautiful week for a lot.

Blythe Brumleve: 19:17

I wasn't part of a stock deal but I was part of a company closure when it did close down and I just remember it, you know sort of very much similar to your point Like it, it happened quick.

Blythe Brumleve: 19:29

Um you thought you would have a little bit more runway and you know you think things were, you know, challenging, but it didn't, I mean, until they you literally I was at a dentist appointment and got a text saying company shut down, like it was. It was just that drastic. And so I think, for for you know, to your point, it just happens so quick and you know, when things happen so quick then it's almost like you see all of your work that's just given up almost like a yard sale and that has to be gut wrenching. So I didn't know if maybe there was a little bit of like solace that it lives on with with Flexport, but maybe not considering, you know.

Michael Gray: 20:07

I'll reserve my honest opinion.

Blythe Brumleve: 20:10

Well, at least I will say I actually keep a little convoy like a slap bracelet they gave these out at one of the parties, and so I thought they had great merch.

Michael Gray: 20:21

So it was such a fun company and so many awesome people. And I have people that I will know there for the rest of my life and I just texted with someone that was you know he was probably he was one of the first 20. I was just texting with him last week and he's he's got his own you know awesome freight tech company that he's he's launching and, uh, you know, so it's it's just super cool and it's so cool to see the convoy alumni, like what everyone has done. There's so many different, just there's just so many super smart people there and you know, here I am just like some trucker guy like uh, okay, like I, I felt so out of place so often around there, but you know, um, just just awesome people that are just the way that they think is is is unique, and I think that it's hard to see uh to understand that without really, um, you know, being a part of something like that and how unique the way that they think is and how just brilliant they are.

Michael Gray: 21:24

I remember I'll show you a quick story I remember one time I had like man. I thought this was like a brilliant idea, you know, and I had made like PowerPoint and one of the gosh he was head of product or something, I don't remember, but just I think he came from Uber, was a high up at the original Uber guy and man, I thought I was like man, this is going to be the greatest idea. And I sat down in a room with him and shared my idea and he asked me like three questions and I was just like I just I'm just going to go back to my desk now. What were the questions? I don't really remember, but it was like something that was.

Michael Gray: 22:05

It just made me think about it so differently than the way that I was thinking about it and it made me realize that this probably wasn't the greatest idea or as good of an idea as I thought it was, and but he did it in such like a humble like way. But I felt like I was a kindergartner, you know, talking to a college professor at that point in time and I'm just like, but he was, he was, he was generous and kind, but yeah, and that's, you know. And then just the shutting down quickly and everything, and you know that kind of led into my next project, and so I left convoy and I went to one point logistics, and that shut down quickly too, you know, and so one point was part of keep trucking right. Do you remember the whole one point? I do. I was like why?

Blythe Brumleve: 22:58

have I heard that name before, so keep trucking. Okay, so one point turned into, or was it a division of keep trucking?

Michael Gray: 23:05

It was a division parent-child sister. I don't really know the whole relationship there, but we spun that thing up. We had close to an $80 million run rate within 10 months and I still believe to this day that Keep Trucking if Convoy would have had Keep Trucking's data, it would have been game over, like the, the amount of data that keep trucking has and the ability you know how they use that data to predict what drivers next move and then predict you know what they would want as a reload. You know it was, it was something else. And then that, so that shut down super quick too. Uh, where they were hiring right up to the last day and, um, you know, I and I and I saw that and that's what. That's what led me to to go to SPI. Is that was right. It was two weeks before COVID. They laid everybody off um 380 onshore employees, I think and then, like close to it, I think it was over 500 offshore employees and just laid everybody off. Like that they kept me and like 12 people on for a little while, for a few months. That gave me some runway and I was just like there's too many things here that are not in my control and that's what led me to SPI and I had worked with an agent when I was with my parents' trucking company.

Michael Gray: 24:37

We worked for like maybe three different brokers. We were mostly shipper, direct-to-shipper, and that's it. I don't even think we didn't even have a load board till like almost the last, like two years or something. We didn't even have subscriptions to the load boards and we and that was one thing, I, you know, I caught it from my dad like oh, only a handful of shippers, like just a cup, or a handful of brokers. You know, don't don't put yourself out there to too many brokers, because it doesn't, it won't build a good business and I and I still believe that to the day to this day, even though I am a broker.

Michael Gray: 25:15

But the one of the one of the shipper, one of the brokers we worked for was Colette Charbonneau. She was an agent and back then so I've known Colette for you know, gosh 20 some years and she's one of the top agents over there and she had great flatbed freight and she and I called her. I still had her cell phone, her number program, my cell phone, and it's like Colette, I'm thinking about doing something. She's like you should join SPI and I'm like, okay, hook me up. And then I talked to uh talk to the people involved and told them what I had. What I had is my book, and it just kind of kicked off from there.

Blythe Brumleve: 25:56

Brokering success demands a battle-ready strategy. Tye TMS equips freight brokers with the ultimate battle station for conquering a tough market. With Tye, brokers gain access to a comprehensive platform where rate intelligence and quote history converge on a tough market. With Tai, brokers gain access to a comprehensive platform where rate intelligence and quote history converge on a single screen. It's not just a page, it's a strategic command center designed to help brokers win. Tai equips your team with all of the data they need to negotiate with confidence and allows them to communicate directly with carriers and customers from a simple control base. Revolutionize the way your brokers perform by giving them a competitive advantage with Tide TMS. For more info, go to tai-softwarecom. Backslash battle stations and we also have a link for you in the show notes to sign up for a demo.

Blythe Brumleve: 26:42

I was going to say so. You really. You went from these situations where it was a lot of, I guess, sort of turmoil and you were looking for stability. So you jump into the world of entrepreneurship, which is so many ups and downs. But you know, I feel like we're with each other here. At least you can count on yourself and not outside factors that you know could play a role, of course, but you're ultimately, you're counting on yourself.

Michael Gray: 27:10

Yeah, exactly, and that's um. So I, I was working as a sales manager for another kind of big box digital brokerage and kind of training some of their team and uh, I was laid off from them this last November and uh, it just came to that point, like you, cause I always wanted that salary and the health insurance and stuff, and it's like that's stability, you know. And it just just hit me at like this this is not stability, you know, it's um. Stability is what I can build myself and what I have control over. Right, I don't, I can. You can be the best sales person in the world.

Michael Gray: 27:50

Like, look at CH Robinson, they just laid off half their sales staff. And you know, some of those people were really good, you know, at selling freight. They don't, they didn't have a half half their team just being, you know, a bunch of knuckleheads not making any numbers, and now I mean those people are out and and and now I mean those people are out and they probably have a non-solicitation agreement too. You know, and that's to me like that's frightening. You know, if this is how we make our living, I would rather do it myself. And then you know, you can deal with, you know, being an agent there's, it's just like everything. There's rollercoaster, freight is a rollercoaster, and I've been doing this since you know, 2000 and I've seen a bunch of rollercoasters and you know, this isn't the worst rollercoaster I've seen. You know, the worst down, uh that I've seen in the industry and I don't even think it's really that down, you know. But, um, yeah, so I that's that's kind of my long story of how I became an agent and and I'm just uh, there, there was somebody posted on LinkedIn and it, it, it really struck me as I was thinking about you know, do I go on my own? Do I go? You know, cause I, I could go get another job at a tech company, sales, and blah, blah, blah, I'm sure I could.

Michael Gray: 29:05

And so I saw this post that said a salary is the price they pay you for giving up on your dreams, and I'm like, yep, that's it. It gave me chills and I'm like I'm going all in and I'm going to do it myself and I'm going to build something that's going to last and no one can lay me off, no one can say hey, mike, you can be the best salesperson in the world, and I'm not trying to say I'm the best salesperson in the world. I'm like a probably above mediocre salesperson. There's definitely.

Michael Gray: 29:32

I've worked around some really great salespeople and you know, nobody say, hey, mike, you had like the last two quarters, you know, looking pretty rough here. You know like, you know you didn't onboard any new shippers. You know you didn't onboard any new shippers. So you know I don't. I can have that conversation with myself and and I'll probably beat myself up just as bad. But the end of the day, you know it's, it's up to me and I think that that motivation, that there is no comfort, there is no cushion, there is no hey, this, this deposits coming twice, twice a month, regardless, right, I don't have that, it's 100% commission.

Blythe Brumleve: 30:16

And you just got to go.

Blythe Brumleve: 30:17

You know you got to go get it every day, so there really is no motivation as far as like the thought process of not knowing where your next check is going to come from, and I think that that's driven.

Blythe Brumleve: 30:23

You know, for you know just the freight agent model in general, which is why I just love talking about it, because it's it's so just. You know, for you know just the freight agent model in general, which is why I just love talking about it because it's so just. You're an entrepreneur at heart and you're combining your entrepreneurial spirit plus the relationship factor that is still so important in logistics, and with your history at working at these digital freight brokerages, and then also with your sales background you just mentioned C, mentioned CH Robinson. You know laying off, you know half of their sales staff. I'm curious, as for like a big picture point of view, because then I want to drill down into you know more of like the sales details and you know your sales strategies and the way you think. But as far as like a big picture of what the sales role looks like in freight, what do you think that looks like now and how it's evolving in the future?

Michael Gray: 31:14

That's a really good question. I think I can tell you what it. I'll start with by saying what I don't, what I think doesn't work, and we see a lot of what doesn't work these days. It's kind of a pet peeve of mine. We see a lot of what doesn't work these these days and it's kind of a pet peeve of me of mine because it's like we all get spam calls every freaking day and it drives me nuts Like and you have to. You know, if you go talk to an enterprise shipper, they're like I get there. Every one of them will tell you I get at least 10 calls a day, you know, and emails. So I think what doesn't work is like you know this, this whole like sales cadence, you know I've I've a joke that I say like the people who sell the sales cadence software are some of the best salespeople in the world because they convinced a generation of salespeople that the only way to sell is through a sales cadence.

Michael Gray: 32:10

And don't do that Like my opinion. I soapbox for a second. But like you know, like seriously, like all you're doing is making people mad and you're kind of you're muddying the water, for you know, if you're part of a bigger company. You know, and I've I've seen this at bigger companies, these guys who get these cadences going. It's like, oh, here's ABC freight company and they just emailed me and sent me a message on LinkedIn and I've called me three times this week. You know what, like, just like, dude, just fricking, take a cold shower, bro. You know, like that, if that person was interested in working with your company, they're probably not anymore anymore because you just freaked them out. You know nobody. You know, when you start to talk to somebody, you have to realize that they what the first thing that they're thinking of is like how much time is this person going to waste and how can I get them off the phone? Those are the two things. You know.

Michael Gray: 33:02

You get somebody call and you accidentally answer a salesperson who wants to like update your vehicle's warranty or some crap.

Michael Gray: 33:08

Right, and you're trying to be polite, that's what you're thinking, right, but if that person can kind of somehow build rapport with you, in that first couple of sentences, you know, and I think that's that is my sales, you know, kind of part of my sales methodology is like just just, you know it's tonality and building rapport and not being a freaking, you know, you know we're not trying to get a restraining order against us. We're trying to, you know, get these people as customers. And I feel like that's how we treat a lot of people in freight sales is treat these shippers. And I think it'd be great if I'd, like a magic wand, I'll just tell everybody, just you know what salespeople, just take a breath. You know, like just just it's gonna be okay. You know, let's just go try to like really find out what we're good at don't sell everything to everyone and find out what you're good at and then just stay in that lane and just stay in that that area.

Blythe Brumleve: 34:09

Um, so, um, yeah, so hopefully that that answers a little bit of your question well, you, you mentioned building because I mean you think about all of the spam calls, all of the spam communications that these shippers are getting. And so if you, if you're sitting in the sales world which you are and you're trying to build that rapport, you're hoping that someone answers the phone first of all, and then, when they actually do answer the phone, what is sort of your go-to way to build that rapport in a short amount of time?

Michael Gray: 34:42

So I think you do have a short amount of time, right, and I will say that tonality makes a ton of difference and there's a lot of training on tonality. It's not what you say, what you say is important and has to be perfect. That's 10% of it. 90% of it is how you say it and um, and so, like I would encourage you know anybody who's you know maybe, struggling like, focus on that, focus on how you say things.

Michael Gray: 35:17

And then also, I think that it's fair to say that we can, you know, you can't know a ship, all a ship, a shipper's problems without them telling you Right, and somebody's to, just like you know, tell you, hey, yeah, actually I have trouble on this lane, right, you know, when you call them out of the blue, they're, you know, maybe they will, but, um, if they will on the first call, they I don't know, maybe they're not, they might be the, not an really an ideal shipper, because they're probably telling that to 50 other people and bidding it out and giving it to the cheapest person, right? So you know, it's, it's, it's what you say, and I always, you know, just like a cold cold call tip, I guess, mike, cold cold call tip, which I feel like I'm good at Cause I.

Michael Gray: 36:00

I don't want to pat myself on the back too hard but, like you know, the, I make maybe five, 10 calls a month, you know, and I land and I and I move a relationship forward with two of them, one or two of them, and you know spending that time to. I listened to your, your, your podcast with Chris Jolly the other day and listen to him sometimes but what he says is like own your backyard and I really, really believe in that. My backyard I live in just outside of Jackson, wyoming, and there's no freight here, there's hardly any people here. So my backyard is Wyoming, southern Idaho, montana, denver, salt Lake right, probably arguably the crappiest area for freight in the country. I mean, there's the Northeast, I've heard is pretty rough. I haven't really dabbled too much up there, but nobody. You know Wyoming sucks. So you know, find, find something that you can offer these people. Nobody wants freight coming to. I'll just use Wyoming as an example. Nobody wants freight going to Wyoming and you have to know what kind of freight comes into Wyoming. Okay, you got a bunch of oil field stuff that comes in. There's a ton of work going on in the energy sector. Bill Gates is building a nuclear power plant here. Facebook is building a data center in cheyenne and, uh, you know there. So there's a ton of stuff, there's massive solar projects coming in.

Michael Gray: 37:35

It's like look at those shippers, who, who is bringing this stuff in? And calling them and saying, hey, I run a freight agency out of um, out of northwest wyoming, and I specialize in bringing freight into Wyoming and I see that you guys are working on this nuclear power plant in Kemmerer, wyoming, do you? And I shouldn't even said that Nobody's no, not somebody's going to call them and you know what I mean. Like going in with something like that. Like, yeah, you know, we specialize. I have a ton of guys that they run emergency loads up here from Utah and Denver Denver, because those are the closest metros Right, they can just get, get the freight up here. I have a really good relationship with a ton of truckers and you know that that perks their interest. Like, hey, this guy maybe actually can help me, because you know no one else is doing this type of freight. Or if they are talking, you know they're a big, you know massive equipment company or power company or something like that that's building this or construction company. They probably have relationships maybe with some bigger brokers, and maybe those brokers are like oh, who are you? You know, like nobody wants that freight. And then here's this other guy that's calling me and he wants the freight, he has the trucks Right.

Michael Gray: 38:54

So I think it's like going into a cold call. You have to make assumptions on what their pain points are, and it's not always that difficult to make those kinds of assumptions. And I feel like it, um, I'm a big believer in just thinking about things, right, which sounds kind of stupid, right, but like, if you're like, hey, here's this, here's this project coming up, don't, don't call them that same day, you know what I mean. Like, just let it marinate for a few days or a week, and then, and then, and then it's kind of amazing, I, you know, I feel like just things just come to to you where, like, oh, hey, you know, maybe here's this, whatever they're going to have solar things, and you know we find out in a news article that the solar is coming from Arizona.

Michael Gray: 39:44

And then you can just Google like, hey, arizona, phoenix, arizona, solar manufacturers, right, and give them a call, and then you know you have all this background going in and it's and it's not just like calling them like hey, this is Joe from ABC freight. Like can I give you a bid on a load Right? And or you know you're blasting them four different emails and pinging them on LinkedIn because you have the greatest AI, whatever thing that's going to deal with their freight, and people don't super care about that anymore. I feel like Not a lot. Some people do, but so, anyways, I tend to ramble, so if I ever am rambling, feel free to just derail me.

Blythe Brumleve: 40:25

Oh no, I was going to let you go Cause I it was. It was. It's really interesting to hear. It almost sounds like the. When you're making these cold calls they're not really cold calls because you've already done the research and you're approaching them with solutions to their problems and these problems they might not even know that exists, or the problem might not be like a front burner item. It might be a back burner item that they just deal with.

Blythe Brumleve: 40:48

So, it sounds like you're doing a lot of research ahead of time before you even make a. You know, I don't want to even call it like a cold call. It sounds almost like a warm you know introduction I, I, it's probably the better way to put it. But what did I guess maybe? What does that research process look like? Or is it just a pivotal part of your day to read up on local news and own your, your backyard to?

Michael Gray: 41:09

to Chris Jolly's point I think it's owning your backyard. And then I feel like I have an unfair advantage because I specialized in in flatbed freight. Um, I do a lot of power only and a lot of flatbed freight. It's probably 50, 50, right, um, and the flatbed. It's kind of easy to see what's going on, cause you can see what's on the trailer right and the flatbed. It's kind of easy to see what's going on because you can see what's on the trailer right, dry van, reefer. You don't know, it could be empty, it could be a load of shrimp, it could be a load of basketballs, who knows. So you know kind of seeing what's going on and you know you can see a load of equipment going down the road or a load of you know whatever, and sometimes it's brand, you know like, you know you can see something and it's you can easily identify what it is, and then it's just you know quick Googling, you know where it's from and if you see that stuff a lot. So spending time out there also and then seeing you know like power, only like what. Okay, this shipper, I can see that's a shipper on trailer and there's, you know it's obviously an owner operator pulling it. You know calling that shipper and be like, hey, you know, I actually do a lot of power only for someone else that's in your neck of the woods and I have like we have extra capacity and we could use some additional loads.

Michael Gray: 42:31

Sometimes you guys ever struggle and, and you know, I, I also see that you guys have loads coming to whatever fill in the blank tough area to get freight to that nobody really wants like go in with that lead, with like the hardest thing, and, um, you know you'll at least perk their interest. And then, um, so that's part of the part of the research. And then I'll say like, also, the next challenge is, uh, to not be an, an annoying person, right? Um, you know there's sometimes I'll talk to somebody and then not talk to them again on purpose for like two, two or three weeks, and, um, you know, you don't like the follow-up or you know, just, just, just don't send, just don't. It's everything's different for everybody. This, this works for me, you know.

Michael Gray: 43:20

And then just building where you see that you've perked their interest and you can tell by some the way someone reacts to your phone call that you've perked their, their interest, and then just like, don't be annoying, right, because everybody in freight is annoying and and I will even call on my next call back I will say like, hey, I don't want to be that annoying freight sales guy, but you know I do. You have something, you know, heading out to whatever this week. You know, I'd love, I'd love to work with you here's, here's some things that I've, I've helped other shippers with. You know that. You know, does this resonate with you? And, like you said, you, you made a point that a lot of shippers don't know what their pain points are. So asking some good questions and, you know, kind of just shutting up and letting them talk is golden right. Don't try to like impose your solution on them, but just ask questions and you know, if you can get them to talk and and and, a lot of people will open up and and and tell you some things and and.

Michael Gray: 44:20

Then you can be like hey, you know I, and I think it's really valuable also to say like, hey, you know, I'm probably not the best guy for that, you know. Um, you know, but you also mentioned something else and I might be able to help you with that. You know this other thing Right, I'm using generalities there, but I'm a fan of like telling people I'm not your guy for that and like, and there's a lot of things I'm not the guy for that. Like I'm not the guy that's going to go, you know, necessarily do like, I'll tell you I had a frozen fish customer and coming out of Los Angeles, a couple of drops going across the country and I'm just like, dude, I'm not your guy for this, like I'm I'm sorry, so go, I appreciate it, but like you know, go find there's guys that are good at at at this, and I'm just not very good at it.

Blythe Brumleve: 45:14

And I'm sure that's that makes it you, you, very endearing to that person and makes them trust you more. So, worst case scenario, if they're not responsible for hauling frozen fish anymore and they go somewhere else where it's a better fit for you, then you're probably going to be the first person that they call which now it's almost. You know that this relationship building is working for you.

Michael Gray: 45:38

Yeah, yep, that's a good point, and I think that the sales process also, I think we need to look at it in terms of years and not days, months, quarters, right, because freight is is a year's long process and you know, just building, building that, that trust, and then just it's not really hard to be better than 80% of the brokers out there. It's really not.

Blythe Brumleve: 46:06

That was one of the things that Mike Michalik, who who VP of sales over at SPI. He has mentioned a couple of times about their internal training on helping their agents upsell their existing customer base and how it's really helped when other freight brokerages out here are really struggling. It's really helped SPI and their agents really thrive through this down market and I think that that is an important takeaway because, for you know, it's very much as far as like sales tips that you see in the freight world it's spray and pray, it's all of the cold calling, it's download a lead list off of Zoom info and just mass email. Everyone approach to building the relationships, doing the deep research before you ever even pick up the phone and call them, sounds like a much more just, sustainable pathway to you know happiness and income. Is that a safe assumption?

Michael Gray: 47:04

I think it is. And I think it's really tough because I've I've lived that life in a big box brokerage. It's really tough to do what I do in a big box brokerage because they're going to be like, hey well, until you start making your your numbers right, you know, like when you prove yourself you can do whatever you want. Everybody leaves you alone until you don't make it for a couple of quarters Right. But you know it's, it's.

Michael Gray: 47:29

I've seen it where, like all of a sudden, the CFO is digging into the sales numbers and it's like, uh, all of a sudden you got to this. You know the CFO and the CEO have decided everybody needs to make 80 phone calls a day because that's how they understand sales and that's how they think sales works. Is it's just a numbers game? And you can say it's a numbers game, but I really I mean I it kind of is I guess you do enough right, I throw enough crap against the wall. Some of it's going to stick, but it's it's still going to be crap probably.

Michael Gray: 48:03

But the yeah, so. So with the agent model, I feel like it's easier to do that and to build those relationships, cause I can just work on my own terms and I don't have to answer to. You know, I'm not having a one-on-one with my sales manager every week to ask me what I'm doing and then find out I only made five phone calls, you know. Then that probably wouldn't go over super well, right. But you know, as an agent you can do whatever you want and then you, you know, building those, those relationships back up.

Blythe Brumleve: 48:33

So if, where do you see, because I think the digital freight brokerages, especially with Convoy, they really brought to the forefront the adoption of technology inside of a brokerage office and especially with AI and a lot of these, you know the these tools that are that are coming to the market, where it seems to almost reduce the workload of a broker. I'm curious as to what do you think the future of freight brokerage looks like. Is it, is it the freight agent model? Is it, you know, freight agents in some big box brokerages? Is it a combination of the two? Or how do you see this role kind of evolving?

Michael Gray: 49:18

It's. Yeah, it's another great question. I think that there's just so many different niches within freight that it's hard, it's hard to make a generalization. It's hard to make a generalization, I think, with like, with what convoys has done, um, and other companies are doing, I think about 50 my my opinion just just pulling this number kind of out of thin air but maybe like 50 of freight can be completely automated. You know, and this is something that we focused on in in convoy and this is how convoy really did have like almost 100% automation, like they know, human interaction from you know the beginning of the load load getting pulled from the TMS, auto built and the Convoy system to the billing, like dispatch, track and trace. You know all this stuff was completely automated over 90% of the time and they were able to obtain almost a hundred percent on on a lot of stuff. And then the only thing that where you know exceptions, driver falls off, breakdown, whatever that was, most of the other you know 10% or whatever that required a human interaction and how they, how they did that was and this is why I think you know a good portion of the freight can be automated is you know you have to look at all the major metros within the United States, right, especially the, or maybe it's called freight hubs, right, and there's, I think, a convoy identified 60 of them or something like that.

Michael Gray: 50:49

And I feel like I'm not giving away the secret sauce here anymore, because you know what convoys I don't even know what they're doing they're Flexport now. So I have no allegiance to Flexport, but the. You know you have to start with Freight Hub to Freight Hub, right, if you have Los Angeles to Chicago, right, there's a ton of drivers that do that all day long, right, chicago, atlanta. Right, fill in the blanks, all the rest, right, lot of drivers that do that all day long, right, chicago, atlanta, right, fill in the blanks, all the rest right. And then it's uh.

Michael Gray: 51:20

Next is like um, what type of freight takes the least amount of human interaction? And that's drive and reefer, right? Um, not so much flatbed, because you kind of got to talk to a flatbed driver. Hey, do we need? We need straps, chains, binders, pipe stakes, whatever. There's a lot of. So the least amount of accessorials as possible, right? So think, like a load of toilet paper for Kirkland, right, you just shove it in there, they. I heard somewhere that each Kirkland facility sells like a load or two of toilet paper a day, right? So there's a ton of that freight right Going probably from the Kirkland Manufacturing Center, wherever that is where they get the toilet paper. I'm just making it up to the Costco Distribution Center and they have DCs all over, right.

Michael Gray: 52:10

So just take that one type of freight, shove it in the back of the van, close the doors, go Right, you don't really need to talk to a driver about anything. He can look at that on an app, know what it is. Nobody has to do Right Done that, that can be automated and there's a ton of that going on. But there's also a ton of stuff that's like you know, like last weekend I had a shipper call me four o'clock on Saturday, a 4th of July weekend Maybe it was weekend before last, I forget Wanting a team to pick up in Southern California, flatbed team to go to Chicago, deliver Tuesday, a Tuesday morning at the United Center, which is the hockey arena, you know, and it's like you can't really super automate that. Like you gotta you need a guy who's going to get involved and and you gotta find that truck, you know, you gotta find a driver who's sober because it's fourth July weekend Right, I'm joking, but you know, and there's a ton of that stuff that actually happens, that actually happens and is not able to be automated, or you know it, multi-stop stuff like that starts getting more and more challenging.

Michael Gray: 53:22

So I think that I feel like the tech there's like a pendulum, right, so the pendulum swung really far in favor of automation and tech, right, and we saw that like late 2010s, right, pre-covid, everybody is just going gangbusters over this stuff, right. And then, you know, post-covid, it's kind of swinging back where people are seeing the value in those relationships and I think it'll like kind of level out in the middle and somebody is going to figure out what can be automated and that's going to be a great business for them. And then there's going to be a lot of stuff that you just you need, you need somebody to deal with it, and sometimes that is because of the shipper doesn't have their processes like really together or know what they need. They need an expert to try to to help them figure out.

Michael Gray: 54:20

Hey, should this go LTL, should this go partial? Should this go truckload? Maybe you know whatever, can this wait? Instead of shipping on Friday at 3 PM, can we ship it on Monday and you know, save you 20%, right, does it really super need to go? You know, save you 20%, right, does it really super need to go? And so that's where the I think that's where the agent model comes in, because we are, you know, there's a lot of different nuances within agents, but like I feel like talking to a lot of agents, that's kind of where we fit in, whereas we kind of end up being an extension of a shipper and their team, right, and so it's kind of like a, instead of hiring a logistics person, like you kind of get somebody and just, you know, they charge, they upcharge the freight a little bit and that's how you pay for them. So Does?

Blythe Brumleve: 55:09

does email still, or social media, do these play a role at all with sort of you know? I guess places where you know freight brokers should spend their time, investment, investing their time?

Michael Gray: 55:22

I I've never, I don't know. I think the only time I've landed shippers off of, like social media and stuff is like right after right, when convoy was taken off, like that post series a, series B. You know, you get these early adopters big, big shippers who are like you know, hey, freight's broken. We've been messing with this for decades. You guys are doing something else. We want to talk to you and those are some of those relationships that I still have is a lot of those shippers that I met early on who are early adopters and, um, so I think it does work if there's like something new, groundbreaking, but if it's kind of like the same old, I mean I feel like it's kind of been stagnant, like I haven't really seen anything super great come out.

Michael Gray: 56:10

Um, I will say that I am a big fan and this is something SPI uses and and and is. I'm a big fan of highway and you know that carrier onboarding and there's just so much fraud out there. It is just absolutely bananas. You know, like the days of sending a PDF. You know a broker, carrier contract and a PDF and the guy like signs it digitally and sends it back Like if your broker is still doing that, like, if any shippers are listening to this, like, look me up on LinkedIn, cause that guy's going to get you in trouble. Like, and if I can't do your freight, I will point you in the right direction of somebody who can help you. Like, uh, we, we, uh just the the fraud and and it's there's oftentimes we're all post a load and I have, like I I'll say that I have some good paying freight a lot of times and where my shipper doesn't necessarily care so much about the cost, they need that truck Right, and so I'll post it at a little bit above market and I'll get you know phones literally blowing up right faster than I can answer it, and I'll get you know phones literally blowing up right Faster than I can answer it.

Michael Gray: 57:18

And so often, well over half of it is people. It's just they would not, they will not qualify to haul with SPI, and you know so that therefore, there's like something wrong, like they. You know, when you look into the insights and highway, like, hey, this person has. You know, when you look into the insights and highway, like, hey, this person has, you know, five MCs at this IP address and that's a super big red flag and um, you know, as, as an agent, as you know, you know I I feel like I'm representing the companies that that are hiring me. Um, when I'm out there hiring trucks, like, uh, you know, sure, I could probably go get one of those guys onboarded. You know, maybe not through SPI, but if I was through somebody else, because SPI won't, you know they have blocks and standards, but you know, hey, maybe I could go make a $1,000 ripper on that load and hire some guy who's just a schmo and hopefully gets it done. But you know, that's not.

Michael Gray: 58:17

You know, looking at the long-term play.

Michael Gray: 58:18

So you know, with the technology, there are a lot of things that are coming into play and I feel like fraud is kind of like the next big thing and I think fraud is moving more across the country and you know, outside of, like the port cities of LA, houston, savannah, you know, new York right, where there's, there's always been a lot of fraud and freight theft and stuff like that, and it's, it's just, it's just all over, and I'm sure a lot of shippers see that, see this as well, where you just get people who they're calling you that are probably obviously fraud, you know.

Michael Gray: 58:53

So, yeah, I think there's definitely still a play for, obviously, fraud, you know. So, yeah, I think there's definitely still a play for tech and you know, and then all of the, the things you know, the tracking apps and stuff like that, like I track almost every load and you know it's those things are like it's it's kind of table stakes now, and so the you know the industry has changed. I think it will continue to change and we'll see, you know, where this next revolution comes from. But, yeah, so I guess, to get back circle, back to your original question, unless there's something like really big that shippers haven't heard of a hundred times already, like social media, like you're probably not like getting a lot of shippers on by doing that, in my personal opinion, yeah, I think it's.

Blythe Brumleve: 59:41

It depends on the platform. I think that the sort of the famous marketing answer is like it depends. It depends on the person, it depends on their message, it depends on the people that they're trying to reach. There's a lot of different factors that are going into play there, of different factors that are going into play there, and so it could just be a situation where, you know, you just need to focus maybe on the research and the relationship building side of things and then you can use that experience to funnel some of those social media postings and some of those social media messaging and maybe you can attract, you know, similar shippers to your point I think that you were making earlier in the show. Um, last couple of questions here. Uh, if you are a freight broker and you are thinking about becoming a freight agent, what would be, you know, some pieces of advice that you would give to folks who are thinking about, you know, making taking the leap like you did?

Michael Gray: 1:00:33

Um, I would. I would say you really have to take an honest look at yourself and if you can handle it like being commission only and not knowing where you know that next check is coming from, like, if you're just starting out, I was able to give myself some runway, you know, and have some other things going on, uh, to build my book, so I did create a little bit of safety for myself in that aspect, um, but you know, depending on how you're thinking about doing it, if it's going to be your, your your sole source of income and you're the only breadwinner in your family, um, you know that's, uh, it's a lot of stress and and um, so I would say, making sure you have some runway, uh, is is huge. I would say minimum of three months. Uh, maybe six months. Uh, things don't always work out, you know as well as you think they're going to work out. Um, and if you have some shipper relationships, uh, make sure that those are going to be transferable, right, whether it's through fax, illicit, if somebody is actually going to mess with you about that, or you know you can talk to a shipper all day long and they're, you know, like really, really evaluate what that relationship is, really, really evaluate what that relationship is. And, um, you know, I don't think it's honest to go take a customer away from somebody that's a, that's a good customer, you know, um, but um, yeah, so, yes, it's it's.

Michael Gray: 1:02:12

And then if, if, if, you have that level of comfort, like, and you feel like you're the person who's actually not going to like, I mean, you got to have a, an attitude. Where you are, you will not give up. Right, and that's that's the way I, you know, kind of my mentality is. My mind frame is like I, I'm, I'm the breadwinner for my family and my wife and I, we have a big family and you know, like I, I'm it, like I'm the reason why there's food on the table, and so I can't like I, I, I don't golf, I don't, I don't, do I work and family, and that's it. And um, you know, and then also, when you start getting successful and having, you know, building that book of business is, don't get comfortable, because you know there's rarely any, any what I'll call new business out there, you know, like some shipper just magically appears and all of a sudden you're going to be their guy and they're going to have, you know, you know 50 loads a week for you to go broker Like that doesn't super happen. All the time you are taking freight away from your competition. Right there there's an incumbent broker and incumbent carrier over there and you got to be better than them every freaking day. You know, and you can't rest and you know and and that's why I say it's not super hard to be better than 80% of the brokers out there, super hard to be better than 80% of the brokers out there. You know, and I feel like that's where agents have, we do have an advantage over that. And you know and also say where we have an advantage over, you know a bigger brokerage or even a medium sized broker is.

Michael Gray: 1:03:53

You know I'm, I'm carrier sales, I'm shipper sales. You know I'm, I'm carrier sales, I'm shipper sales. You know I'm not the billing and AP and AR, but you know like SPI takes care of all that stuff. But I'm shipper sales and carrier sales and I talked to all of the carriers and I can tell them exactly what's going on with the shippers and where. You know, let's say somebody calls you, uh, you know, I had a call last Friday at like 4 PM on a Friday, uh, out of Denver going to middle of nowhere, wyoming. You know, and I was not the only broker and this is a new customer I'm trying to build, build trust with and I was not the only broker working on it, but I was the one that found the truck and, um, you know because a lot of anybody who's worked in a big box or bigger brokerage what's going to happen when, when the the you're, you're the sales guy, and you call your carrier sales team and be like, hey, I got a load out of Denver that goes to, you know, middle of nowhere, wyoming, you know town, with your population of 200 people, uh, you know that they want delivered on a Saturday.

Michael Gray: 1:04:58

Most of the time, that carrier sales people they're going to like, no, like just take a hike, like you're insane, we're already drinking beer and uh, you know, but you know that's those are the type of things that you do. And then you cover that and then just like, keep that, um, that high level of service and then like, over, communicate on everything and and you'll win that shipper over, uh, versus, and I know the broker that I was bidding against, uh, working against also, um, and they're, they're a pretty good size brokerage and um, they actually drove the price up for that shipper because they had it posted for way too much money. And, um, and the carrier, it ended up costing the shipper another an extra 300 bucks because that they just posted a stupid price. And and the trucker told me I would have done it for your price, um, but uh, this other guy posted it for more. And you know, and because I'm the guy who is talking to the shipper, I know exactly what's going on.

Michael Gray: 1:05:59

It's Friday, this driver, owner, operators, probably thinking I don't want to get screwed over, I don't want to be going through whatever emergency crap and not getting good information, you know, so they're, they're looking at that. And so when they're talking to me or they're talking to a carrier, sales agent at a big box brokerage who doesn't necessarily know all the details, and I'm like, hey, bro, you can, like, you can go in there, you know plenty of parking, you can spend the night there. They're going to load you. I got the guys. You know, I'm like, I'm like texting the guy right now as we're talking, that I have a truck. You know, um, and like you're, you're it, you know you, you know they're going to go with with me because they're going to feel like they have that trust. And that's another thing is like the carrier sales side of being an agent is also huge as well.

Michael Gray: 1:06:47

And building those relationships with truckers and I've worked with you know, I have been in trucking a lot and that's the carrier side and there's a lot of brokers like they don't, they don't care if they ever work with you again and I want to.

Michael Gray: 1:06:59

It's it's not uncommon for me to um load a truck and then give him his next two loads. I would say that happens probably once a week and um, you know getting that. And then now I have like a bunch of truckers that now they'll text me like hey, I'm here, do you have a load for me? And cause, they'll remember that I'm the guy that you know. Not only did I load them somewhere, but I found them a load going. You know ABC and then C to D or whatever you know. And that's another thing that you can do as well with building those carrier relationships is be like hey, I have a truck that's coming to your neck of the woods, can you reload them with anything? Right, and you can have that same play that a asset-based carrier does. But you got to have those relationships with your truckers.

Blythe Brumleve: 1:08:03

Last. I know I said last couple of questions here, but I got a couple more. Last I know I said last couple of questions here, but I got a couple more. So if you, I'm curious on the freight SPI, um, that doesn't have these kind of, you know, the, the tech suite to to help you, the sales tips to to help you further your business, what advice would you give to them to start preparing to switch companies, to, to switch agency providers, um, what? What sort of insight would you give, give them to make that process a little bit smoother?

Michael Gray: 1:08:37

um, so switching a book of business, that's something I've never really done. I, I, I've, I've worked at a bunch of different companies and done a lot of things and I absolutely I really do love spi like and I'm not just saying that like um. One thing that I, that I appreciate about them the most and a lot of guys will find this applicable if they're working in other brokerages or agencies is one thing I had to learn is to put my guard down SPI a little bit, because they say yes to like a lot of stuff Like I have like this new shipper and they have like some unique billing requirement and they want you to do all these.

Michael Gray: 1:09:15

you know stupid things and it's whatever. You know where a lot of people are like I don't really know if we can support that or whatever. Or they have like a unique insurance requirement. I'd say that's a big one, right, unique. You know whether it's high cargo value or you know high trailer value, like with power only interchange with this one shipper interchanges don't really work. So we've got to have like a high value non-owned auto policy which is something that the carrier has to like go get from his insurance agent. And you know where I've seen in so many different scenarios they're like you know we don't really do that type of thing. You know it doesn't really scale Right.

Michael Gray: 1:10:02

And with SPI, like the first couple of years I was like I was like ready for a battle, like okay, here's all my points, like we're just going to be the biggest shipper in the world and blah, blah, blah, right, whatever. You know going in with this sales guy mentality of having to fight for my, my shipper, and uh, they're just like yeah, okay, yeah, sure we can do that. I'm like, okay, cool, that's great. Uh, so that's that's one of my favorite things about spi. And if you're working at an agency where you know you don't have those, those tools and um, and that the ability to to do that, um, like unique customer, because the riches are in the niches, right, so you got to find the customers that have those problems and then, um, you know, as far as, like, if you're thinking about transferring a book, um, you know, I would really start looking at what the tools that your current company has like, because tech is super important and hopefully I didn't seem like I was not tech forward, because I am very tech forward. But you know you, you know there there are certain things that that we, that you absolutely have to have, and SBI has invested in some some pretty good the TMS I have no complaints about it.

Michael Gray: 1:11:24

Um, and I and I've used some TMSs that suck, like there's a lot of TMSs that suck, uh and um, that are just difficult to use and clunky and stuff like that, um, and then the tracking and tracing uh, if you're an agent and you're, you know, that's another thing. I know I think a lot of agents get charged for track and trace. It gets taken out of their, their stuff and charged additional for load boards and stuff like that. Those are all free. We get all of all of this stuff highway, you know. So really, look at what that. You know what that agency or what that the, the, the company that you're working for, you know kind of what, what tech offerings they're using. And then are they, are they charging you for those things? And then also like everybody's like super nice, like um, I, I don't even, and that makes it, it does it, I did yeah yep, I made the ceo club this year.

Michael Gray: 1:12:23

Oh nice.

Blythe Brumleve: 1:12:23

Congratulations, which, for folks who may not be aware, you know, sbi hosts a rendezvous every year where they bring all of their agents together. They have a big awards ceremony, they do training, they do. It's basically like a two-day kind of private conference for all of the agents. I went last year and it was so much fun, it was so great to meet a lot of the agents in person, um, and they really wine and dine you. That that was, uh, it was. It was a great experience and and to you know your point, you know, a lot of the people are just so nice and we had the pleasure of talking to a lot of them on this show.

Blythe Brumleve: 1:13:01

And it's not just the agents, it's also the executive team too, and I think it really shows that there's not that sort of maybe like in-house competitiveness with, like, the in-house brokerage team competing with the agents, and so there's not that level of kind of like distrust or competition. The executives are there and the support team is there to support the agents, and so even the agents will support each other too. So I just, you know, I everything that I've heard, everything that I've personally experienced, I'm happy to have them as the, you know, the the title sponsor of this show, because I, you know, I don't just say it because they're the sponsor of the show, but they, they genuinely are people that you know. I always like to pride myself on doing business with people I would have dinner with and enjoy that dinner, and I've had several dinners with the, you know, the SPI team, and so just, I guess, put that into context.

Blythe Brumleve: 1:13:54

Okay, last my for real, last two questions what advice would you give to the sales folks, whether it's freight agent, freight broker, that are struggling in this market? And then, uh, you know I'll, I'll save that last question, which is like where to find you and your work and all that which you know. Of course, you know we'll put that in the show notes as well. Um, but for those people who are struggling with sales right now, what advice would you give them to sort of survive this? You know the storm that we're kind of in now of the down market and you know prep for the upswing.

Michael Gray: 1:14:30

I replied to somebody on LinkedIn this morning who said something about this being a super tough market to sell in, and I said there's always two reasons not to sell. And one is it's a down market and shippers aren't onboarding new brokers, right. Two, it's a hot market and we can't cover the freight we already have, so we can't bring on any new shippers, right, there's always a reason not to get out there and sell. You know, that's our job, that's what we do, and it's our job. That's what we do and it's a craft, and I think that you know, like I said, technology has kind of taken that place. Of that craft and building those relationships, I would say advice is just read a ton of books. You know, I wasn't bored knowing anything. You know, like I just I a very much a self-study type of person and I've probably read a hundred books on sales and um and there's.

Michael Gray: 1:15:34

I'll give you a tip on reading sales books skip the first few chapters, cause it's all a bunch of bullcrap about. Well, we, we did this study and we found that the top 10,000 salespeople have this and this and this in common. And you know, we were the first people in the world to ever discover anything like this. And you should also take our training course right, so that the first two chapters a bunch of bullcrap and and, uh, you know, patting themselves on the backs and just skip it. Um, and don't take the class. You know, just read, just read the books.

Michael Gray: 1:16:04

And I'd say, like, with books, like, just find, maybe start with some of the older sales books. So you know, like, I'm talking like Brian Tracy and trying to think, of course, the Dale Carnegie, right. You know you got to get those basics and you know sales isn't a trick. Or you know nobody cares about your commercial. You know you're going to call them and say your 30 second commercial, nobody gives a damn. Like, just just like.

Michael Gray: 1:16:35

Learn how to like, interact with other humans. You know, like, and we're, I'm a human and I sell and I talk to humans all day long. You know when I'm, uh, you know, building rapport with them as as a customer and a shipper, and the same goes with drivers and just like, just slow down, don't be nervous, Just be yourself, be relaxed. And I would say, uh like with tonality, like Jordan Belfort, who is the Wolf of Wall Street guy he has some super good stuff on tonality and his book I forget what it's called, but there's. He probably has a couple of books, but there's one where he really pings on on tonality and there's a ton of like YouTube and then like YouTube, like you can honestly like learn, I'm convinced like you can learn almost anything on YouTube.

Blythe Brumleve: 1:17:28

I co-sign that.

Michael Gray: 1:17:30

Yeah, like, you don't even like, don't even bother going to school for, like, sales school and stuff like that. Just read some books, spend some time on YouTube and then give yourself time to think and then also, like, give your allow yourself to fail. You know it's, it's okay if, like, somebody says, hey, screw you, never call me again. You know like, and hangs up, you know, but, but I feel like you'll get less of those, the more kind of human, real human, you are, and and uh, going in to that conversation where you actually are maybe a little bit even excited, and people are going to feel that excitement like, hey, I, I can actually help you, like I do this, you know, do you? Do you guys have this type of a problem and, um, you know they're going to feel that and they're going to know it's genuine or not.

Michael Gray: 1:18:20

You know, um, and everybody has has their thing. You know mine is is kind of mountain States, flatbed and power only, and and Southwest also. And you know, hey, somebody's, somebody's just going to nail it on like, you know, frozen crab and lobster out of the Northeast Right, and that's going to be their thing and they're, you know, goies, be like, hey, I do this all the time and, um, you know, and then start with, like, what you might think is that I'm they're probably having problems going. You know, maybe it's cross border from the north east, right, and if you're good at that, like lead, like this is what I do all day long, right, and if you don't have that thing, uh, try to get that thing.

Michael Gray: 1:19:08

Because you know, like, honestly, the stuff, the, the, the full truckloads of bottled water and toilet paper and crap like that, I mean it's probably going to be automated within the next 10 years, you know, and it's probably going to be like so and I, and I feel like in my experience there's exceptions, but a lot of that stuff is like sub 10% anyways, you know, and as an agent, that's probably not going to super cut it. Um, so, um, you kind of got to look at something where you can be right, come around that 15, 20% margin and, um, you know, and, and I'm straight up with my shippers I tell them I, I market up 15, 20% and they're every one of them is totally, totally fine with that. You know, add that kind of value with uh to your shippers and have that kind of relationship. So, yeah, so, hopefully that's some advice and um, yeah, just just study, allow yourself to fail and take notes and just try again.

Blythe Brumleve: 1:20:07

You know, I mean that that's a perfect place to to end the conversation, because you've dropped a lot of gems and I think you know just to sort of, you know, land the plane a little bit here. It's, uh, it's building those relationships, not forgetting about them, doing the research, also, giving yourself a little bit of grace and giving yourself time to to learn and perfect your, your craft. You're not going to be good at it right away, but if you come into the situation prepared and well-researched and willing to offer solutions, then then folks are going to be much more willing to listen, uh, versus you spamming them with, you know, 10 different emails and LinkedIn DMs and all the stuff that everybody hates, um, so so this was a lot. This was a really really good, um, insightful interview. So so, thank you, michael. Where can folks you know follow you, connect with you? Um, it sounds like you're, you're, you're active on LinkedIn, so where can we send folks?

Michael Gray: 1:21:06

Yeah, just I mean, look, look me up on LinkedIn, michael Gray out of Jackson, wyoming. I'm sure there's more than one Michael Gray out of there out there, but I'm the one from Jackson and I don't think there's more than one of me here, at least in freight. So yeah, look me up, send me a DM and and I'm always willing to help others as well, like I, I, I enjoy helping others. So if there's something like you're struggling or something like that, not really feel like you're getting going in sales, like, um, you know, I, I do, I feel like I have the heart of a teacher and, um, I don't know everything, you know, I'm not, I'm not good at you know everything. I'm not going to try to say that, but like um, you know, I do feel like I can at least ask some questions that will maybe get you thinking, uh, about how you can do things differently and kind of change things up.

Blythe Brumleve: 1:21:58

So happy to help people sell, I'm happy to help people. If you're a shipper and you need some uh, you know, freight moved, I can see if I can help you. So sure to put a link to your correct LinkedIn profile in the show notes, just to make sure there's no confusion there. But, michael, thank you again that this was really insightful and hopefully it helps some people who may be struggling with their sales process and get them ready for the upturn, because the upturn is coming. So thank you again.

Michael Gray: 1:22:16

Yeah, thank you.

Blythe Brumleve: 1:22:21

I hope you enjoyed this episode of Everything is Logistics, a podcast for the thinkers in freight, telling the stories behind how your favorite stuff and people get from point A to B. Subscribe to the show, sign up for our newsletter and follow our socials over at everythingislogisticscom. And in addition to the podcast, I also wanted to let y'all know about another company I operate, and that's Digital Dispatch, where we help you build a better website. Now, a lot of the times, we hand this task of building a new website or refreshing a current one off to a coworker's child, a neighbor down the street or a stranger around the world, where you probably spend more time explaining the freight industry than it takes to actually build the dang website. Well, that doesn't happen at Digital Dispatch.

Blythe Brumleve: 1:23:04

We've been building online since 2009, but we're also early adopters of AI, automation and other website tactics that help your company to be a central place to pull in all of your social media posts, recruit new employees and give potential customers a glimpse into how you operate your business. Our new website builds start as low as $1,500, along with ongoing website management, maintenance and updates starting at $90 a month, plus some bonus, freight marketing and sales content similar to what you hear on the podcast. You can watch a quick explainer video over on digitaldispatchio. Just check out the pricing page once you arrive and you can see how we can build your digital ecosystem on a strong foundation. Until then, I hope you enjoyed this episode. I'll see you all real soon and go Jags, thank you.